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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Parsing chinese names, example Gong (Family name) Li (given name) |
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Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | It sounds like we are basically on the same page, xradman. You would have good cause to irate about people mucking up an R3 Korean Disc which I would not do. By the same token, as we have discussed numerous times the same has to go the other way as well. I don't care about anything other than what is ON Screen, I doubt if very many people watching film makie the following mental adjustment. to a moire than possible set of credits, they see and absord both pieces of data in the same way. Asian credits are vertical, Western Credits are typically horizontal and read left to right, Israeli would right to left, it can get very ugly.  Very fast. Keanu Reeves=Keanu Reeves Chow Yun Fat=Chow, Yun Fat Here's to Ken's fix whenever Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 72 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Here's to Ken's fix whenever
Skip Correct. I overworked some german profils of chinese movies after Xradmans guidelines and in my opinion this is the best way and i got no problems with that. But we dont even get an agreement in the smallest points. Does first name and last name means Given Name and Family name or only the on screen order of the name. What means middle name exactly and do we really need this field, this also gives many opportunities to collect bad data... |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 3,830 |
| | Posted: | | | | even if we had one field you would still have people reversing names as they see fit. | | | | Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions. | | | | Last edited: by ? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts: Quote:
(...) Does first name and last name means Given Name and Family name (...) Of course it does, anything else would be really far-fetched. As far-fetched as word counting for parsing purposes. | | | | Last edited: by RHo |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting 8ballMax: Quote:
I enter them as I see them on-screen. . We all do. But where (which field: first name, middle name, last name) do you enter each part of them is the issue at hand, IMHO  | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 |  Posts: 103 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts: Quote:
Does first name and last name means Given Name and Family name or only the on screen order of the name.
What means middle name exactly and do we really need this field, this also gives many opportunities to collect bad data... It seems to me that almost all of the issues relating to name parsing preference could be eliminated by simply renaming "First Name" to "Given Name", "Last Name" to "Family Name", and removing "Middle Name". That way it's totally clear what goes in what field (it should always be clear what is a given name and what is a family name, regardless of order). Display format could then be set as a separate option (e.g. via a tickbox to indicate whether the name should be presented given/family or family/given). "Credited As" can be used where the on-screen format doesn't match what's in the database. | | | | Last edited: by TheFly |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheFly: Quote:
Does first name and last name means Given Name and Family name or only the on screen order of the name.
What means middle name exactly and do we really need this field, this also gives many opportunities to collect bad data...
It seems to me that almost all of the issues relating to name parsing preference could be eliminated by simply renaming "First Name" to "Given Name", "Last Name" to "Family Name", and removing "Middle Name". That way it's totally clear what goes in what field (it should always be clear what is a given name and what is a family name, regardless of order).
Agree. Given Name and Family Name are clearer definition. However, I believe that the present "Last Name" is just intended for the Family Name. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheFly: Quote:
Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts:
Quote:
Does first name and last name means Given Name and Family name or only the on screen order of the name.
What means middle name exactly and do we really need this field, this also gives many opportunities to collect bad data...
It seems to me that almost all of the issues relating to name parsing preference could be eliminated by simply renaming "First Name" to "Given Name", "Last Name" to "Family Name", and removing "Middle Name". That way it's totally clear what goes in what field (it should always be clear what is a given name and what is a family name, regardless of order).
Display format could then be set as a separate option (e.g. via a tickbox to indicate whether the name should be presented given/family or family/given). "Credited As" can be used where the on-screen format doesn't match what's in the database. Fly: Sorry but NO!!!!!!!!! That would wind up data which appears DIFFERENTLY from the way it appears on the screen. The culture is the On Screen, nothing else, what you want to do locally si up to you. But AS CREDITED is defined in the Rules, EXACTLY as you see it on screen, not as your mind thinks it. Should something be done...yes...there are several possibilities, I get tired of rehashing the same ground over and over again every few months...but what it is is for Ken to decide. The Online database is for EVERY user to START to build their own custom database which meets THEIR particular needs. As such it is for both the cultural elitists, the cuturally informed and the cuturally ignorant. Ther Online database will never and can never be setup to be a database tha will fit the needs ot every user or perhaps even most users. My suggestion is to simply FOLLOW the Rules until such time as Ken does something different. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Quoting TheFly:
Quote:
Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts:
Quote:
Does first name and last name means Given Name and Family name or only the on screen order of the name.
What means middle name exactly and do we really need this field, this also gives many opportunities to collect bad data...
It seems to me that almost all of the issues relating to name parsing preference could be eliminated by simply renaming "First Name" to "Given Name", "Last Name" to "Family Name", and removing "Middle Name". That way it's totally clear what goes in what field (it should always be clear what is a given name and what is a family name, regardless of order).
Display format could then be set as a separate option (e.g. via a tickbox to indicate whether the name should be presented given/family or family/given). "Credited As" can be used where the on-screen format doesn't match what's in the database.
Fly:
Sorry but NO!!!!!!!!! That would wind up data which appears DIFFERENTLY from the way it appears on the screen. The culture is the On Screen, nothing else, what you want to do locally si up to you. But AS CREDITED is defined in the Rules, EXACTLY as you see it on screen, not as your mind thinks it. Should something be done...yes...there are several possibilities, I get tired of rehashing the same ground over and over again every few months...but what it is is for Ken to decide.
The Online database is for EVERY user to START to build their own custom database which meets THEIR particular needs. As such it is for both the cultural elitists, the cuturally informed and the cuturally ignorant. Ther Online database will never and can never be setup to be a database tha will fit the needs ot every user or perhaps even most users. My suggestion is to simply FOLLOW the Rules until such time as Ken does something different.
Skip Skip, No, culture is not only on the screen, but in the program as well. Please point to the section in the rules that state that we must use Actor Name Format in First Middle Last format. If that is the case, why is there an option is the program to have the Actor Name Format in Last, First Middle format (under Tools/Options/Defaults)? If I have my program set to Last, First Middle format, I have to switch the name orders to display the name "as credited". As much as you like to think that these things are clear, they are not. | | | | My Home Theater |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | xradman: This is not difficult to grasp. I am not trying to be argumentative or anything eles, but the Rules are very clear and do not provide for your interpretation. If you do it in some form whichg results in the Online having a different appearance from the scree you have done it WRONG. You keep mention the preference setting for how to display names, there is no such preference setting for the Online, that IS a local setting. "list names exactly as they are in the credits" it means what it says. Not as you want it tobe, but exactly as they are in the credits. ANYTHING else is for your local and I will not begin to tell you how to do that, I have enough trouble with my own local, without worrying about someone else's. Skip. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Posts: 103 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
The culture is the On Screen, nothing else, what you want to do locally si up to you. But AS CREDITED is defined in the Rules, EXACTLY as you see it on screen, not as your mind thinks it. Actually, the rules (in addition to saying names should be entered as they appear on screen) say this: Quote:
Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name.
To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool." That quite clearly implies to me that there should be one, and only one, entry in the database for each actor, using their most commonly credited name. Any differences on screen for a particular profile should be represented using the "Credited As" field. So I stand by what I said before. The entry in the database should be stored using "Given Name" and "Family Name" which can then be displayed as is appropriate (selectable via another option). Where this differs from what is credited in an individual profile, "Credited As" is used. | | | | Last edited: by TheFly |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheFly: Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
The culture is the On Screen, nothing else, what you want to do locally si up to you. But AS CREDITED is defined in the Rules, EXACTLY as you see it on screen, not as your mind thinks it.
Actually, the rules (in addition to saying names should be entered as they appear on screen) say this:
Quote:
Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name.
To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool."
That quite clearly implies to me that there should be one, and only one, entry in the database for each actor, using their most commonly credited name. Any differences on screen for a particular profile should be represented using the "Credited As" field.
So I stand by what I said before. The entry in the database should be stored using "Given Name" and "Family Name" which can then be displayed as is appropriate (selectable via another option). Where this differs from what is credited in an individual profile, "Credited As" is used. You missed some valid points, Fly To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool." In short the lookup Tool is built OF film credits, so you are going to find the answer as being the most Commonly Credited, it still does not allow for YOU or anyone else to create a name out of whole cloth, culture or no. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | If you read on screen
Smith John
Doe Joe
...
FamilyName GivenName...
how would you enter those names in DVDP?
I would enter FamilyName in the Last Name field. | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 555 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
If you read on screen
Smith John
Doe Joe
...
FamilyName GivenName...
how would you enter those names in DVDP?
I would enter FamilyName in the Last Name field. If the Smith John in question is most commonly credited as John Smith, then I would enter his name as John / / Smith [credited as Smith John]. If this is his only credit I would enter him as Smith / / John, as this is how he is credited. |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Behemot: Quote:
If this is his only credit I would enter him as Smith / / John, as this is how he is credited. But on screen you only read "Smith John", "Doe Joe"... The // (parsing) is cultural interpretation. | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Enry:
I have also explained this before.
You make no cultural interpretation you enter Smith//John. or Doe//John.
What our friends don't uinderstand is that you don't hasndle names differently just BECAUSE.
Joe Don Smith
Chow Yun Fat
John Boy Doe
They are proposing that in such a cast list, that special RULES should apply to Chow Yun Fat, even though the name appears in identical format to the the Anglican names. And they set up all sorts of straw men to support their argument.Their suggestion, however, does not apply to ALL oriental names, Bruce Li would not be Li//Bruce. The answer as I have stated is for them to deal with the issue locally in ANY way they wish, but for the Online simply follow the Rules. What is this about? They are making a big fuss about the APPEARRANCE of the name, however the Online database cannot be sorted by Actors at this time and I don't see any real need t ever be able to do that. They simply wnat it to appear culturally correct and the place for that is LOCALLY.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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