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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4 ...6  Previous   Next
Spelling of cast/crew names
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
Have Gun Will Travel
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
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It's better than perverting the very foundation of the Rules.

Skip

This is your opinion and you are, of course, entitled to it.  But despited the fact that you were instrumental in writing the rules, you seem to forget that the rules say what they say, not what you INTENDED for them to say -- as has been pointed out to you so many times that I can't begin to count them.

I notice that you have not answered Lars question as to where Ken or Gerri said that this issue is under consideration.  I think you are distorting what everyone else knows by what has been said by Gerri, particularly, to suit your own personal preference.  This is not fair to newbies to make blanket statements that have no basis in fact other than the fact that you state them.  I'm certainly willing to accept a change from Ken and Gerri -- if in fact that is their wish -- but I am not willing to accept this because it is what you "trust that Ken and gerrin will ultimately agree [with]."  I have seen nothing that would indicate that either of the Invelos bosses is reconsidering this matter other than your statement -- and your track record for predicting what they will decide hasn't been too good lately.
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
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DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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I have also explained in great detail the reasona and the logic behind it, Ken. I can only pray that ken and Gerri will choose to reverse their previous comment, because this an absolute assault on the very foundation of the rules and weakens the entire structure, it also not fair to newbies to present something as the way to do it when it is in DISPUTE. When you cqan't even properly apply the cultural rules that some want to use, because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't then that is a very BAD THING and weakens everything.

My mistake was not realizing to what lengths users would go to find ways to skirt the Rules in order to achieve their personal preference.

The CA system is a goodie it ius not a cornerstone to the Rules in any way, which is why I support using the CA system for this data.

Skip.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttony_m
Registered: June 12, 2007
Greece Posts: 7
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Quoting VibroCount:
Quote:
Are we required to use the end credits only? Or can we use the DVD itself to resolve some of the uppercase to lowercase questions?

In the past, when an end credit was difficult to read, we have used DVD extras to assist us in resolving these problems. [...] It seems to me, if the end credits are in all caps, but an extra feature on the DVD itself shows that THEO is, in fact, Théo, then it can be entered into the master database as Théo.

Can we please discuss this specific case, instead of general use of accents/diacritics?
So let me rephrase the original question(s)...

1) Do we "add" accents to names of non-French actors/cast members in French releases of non-French films?
2) Would you accept "Théo" as the correct spelling for an English or American actor/director, if the name was capitalised in the film credits of their French DVD release?
3) Do capitalisation rules of the country of DVD release, or the country of the cast member apply?

Personally, I don't like going by the covers/extras to resolve this, as I have seen quite a few mispelled names on them over the years. I suspect that the French production company who worked on the covers/menus assumed that "Théo" is the correct spelling, as this is the common spelling there.

Note that the director himself spells his name as "Theo" in French (see link to his official French Bio in my previous post). According to his biography has studied in France for a number of years (Sorbonne, IDHEC), so should know how to use accents 

Regards, Tony
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Tony:

I will tell you to list the data exactly as you see it On Screen, make no interpretations and we wait to see what Ken and Gerri come back to us wth. If the SCREEN CREDIT says Théo, so be it. As i said earlier this is a fine example of why NOT to depart from the way the Foundation was constructed. We use the film's credits for our data, and as the Rules say we list the data exactly as it appears, allowing everybody to run around and make their own interpretations is just dead wrong, we might just as well at that point have no Rules.

I am not familiar with Mr. Angelopous' work. Based strcitly on the Credit Lookup Tool you could legitimately setup Theo Credited As Théo, since he has far more work credited as Theo than he does as Théo. The important question is how he is ACTUALLY credited and i gather that to be Théo

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
It's better than perverting the very foundation of the Rules.

kdh1949 is absolutely right. All we have on the matter is a certain clarification from Gerri (link). We all know you don't agree with it, but there has been no statement from Ken or Gerri to say that the matter is under consideration. As you so often do, you keep on forcing your own opinion onto the community, even if it clashes with Gerri's own clarification. Luckily, most of us know when to ignore you, but here you're actually making false blanket statements in response to tony_m's "newbie question". Regardless of how I feel about this particular issue, I truly find that kind of behaviour objectionable. You're presenting your own conflicting opinion as fact in a reply to an "unsuspecting" user, while you're well aware of Invelos' current official stance on the matter.

Again: the link above shows what Gerri said on the subject (even more on page five of the same thread) - and anything else is purely your conflicting opinion. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion - I just wish you'd stop presenting it as the ultimate truth. I'd also urge you to follow your own advice: "make no interpretations and wait to see what Ken and Gerri come back to us with." That as opposed to your current method of constantly whining about the decision, falsely declaring that the issue is "under consideration", meanwhile voting against correct updates following Gerri's instructions to the letter.

Quote:
The CA system is a goodie it ius not a cornerstone to the Rules in any way, which is why I support using the CA system for this data.

It may not be the cornerstone of the rules - simply because large parts of the rules predate the introduction of "credited as" - but to me, it certainly is the cornerstone of the software. There's simply no use in collecting just "as credited" data from movie credits: we might as well make a series op screen caps from the credits and store them as JPEGs. Those would be 100% "accurate", yet of no use to anyone. One of the main reasons for creating a database with cast and crew data (there's more, of course, but you'll agree that the cast and crew sections form the most time-consuming part of entering profiles into DVD Profiler) is... linking! Before we had "credited as", this just wasn't possible. Sure, this system still has some problems, and we're still stuck with a database largely filled with IMDb-data, but things are slowly getting better, and at least locally I can have 100% accuracy. You may regard "credited as" as a "goodie", but to me, even with its flaws, it's the defining feature that makes using DVD Profiler worthwile.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting tony_m:
Quote:

1) Do we "add" accents to names of non-French actors/cast members in French releases of non-French films?

If they have an accent in their name, yes we also do it when changing capitalisation. Accents are not only used in French names.
Quote:

2) Would you accept "Théo" as the correct spelling for an English or American actor/director, if the name was capitalised in the film credits of their French DVD release?

Maybe, maybe not. In this case however there is no indication that THEO usually writes his name with an accent. Specially not considering his Greek looking last name. And then THEO is not the typical French name like FRANCOIS.
Quote:

3) Do capitalisation rules of the country of DVD release, or the country of the cast member apply?

Neither the country of the DVD release, nor the country of film production is relevant to what capitalisation rule to be applied. You could say it's the country of the credited persons origin, but that is  not the full truth as well. It's more the origin of the name and how the credited person does use it normally.
 Last edited: by RHo
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
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Quoting skipnet50:
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Tony:

I will tell you to list the data exactly as you see it On Screen, make no interpretations and we wait to see what Ken and Gerri come back to us wth.

That's a bad advise. He has to change capitalisation. The rules tell him that he can't add the data as he sees it on screen because the data on sceen is all caps.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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In your opiniion it is bad advice, Rho. YOU had NOTHING to do with the development of the Rules however...DID YOU. So with all due respect, you haven't really got a clue other than you think you know more than the person who did develop the concept.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
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Quoting tony_m:
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I have just checked the credits of the French DVD release in question, where he is credited as "THEO ANGELOPOULOS".

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Tony:

I will tell you to list the data exactly as you see it On Screen, make no interpretations and we wait to see what Ken and Gerri come back to us wth.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
In your opiniion it is bad advice, Rho. YOU had NOTHING to do with the development of the Rules however...DID YOU. So with all due respect, you haven't really got a clue other than you think you know more than the person who did develop the concept.

Skip

You really do advise him to enter "THEO ANGELOPOULOS" until Ken and Gerri come back to us wth? That would be against the rules.
 Last edited: by RHo
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting skipnet50:
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In your opiniion it is bad advice, Rho. YOU had NOTHING to do with the development of the Rules however...DID YOU. So with all due respect, you haven't really got a clue other than you think you know more than the person who did develop the concept.

Skip

You probably meant to repeat this old motto (I've GOT to start marketing t-shirts with this slogan): "You are not the Rules God and neither am I, but I am far closer to them than you are."

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting really tired of this "I was involved, so I know best, and you don't have a clue" attitude. I can't imagine why you think that'll help settle any argument. It only serves as ammo to derail yet another thread, and it doesn't really make you look great... Let's just agree not to play this card ever again, shall we? Just put aside your pride, and take the rules at face value like the rest of us.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
It's better than perverting the very foundation of the Rules.

kdh1949 is absolutely right. All we have on the matter is a certain clarification from Gerri (link). We all know you don't agree with it, but there has been no statement from Ken or Gerri to say that the matter is under consideration. As you so often do, you keep on forcing your own opinion onto the community, even if it clashes with Gerri's own clarification. Luckily, most of us know when to ignore you, but here you're actually making false blanket statements in response to tony_m's "newbie question". Regardless of how I feel about this particular issue, I truly find that kind of behaviour objectionable. You're presenting your own conflicting opinion as fact in a reply to an "unsuspecting" user, while you're well aware of Invelos' current official stance on the matter.

Again: the link above shows what Gerri said on the subject (even more on page five of the same thread) - and anything else is purely your conflicting opinion. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion - I just wish you'd stop presenting it as the ultimate truth.

Quote:
The CA system is a goodie it ius not a cornerstone to the Rules in any way, which is why I support using the CA system for this data.

It may not be the cornerstone of the rules - simply because large parts of the rules predate the introduction of "credited as" - but to me, it certainly is the cornerstone of the software. There's simply no use in collecting just "as credited" data from movie credits: we might as well make a series op screen caps from the credits and store them as JPEGs. Those would be 100% "accurate", yet of no use to anyone. One of the main reasons for creating a database with cast and crew data (there's more, of course, but you'll agree that the cast and crew sections form the most time-consuming part of entering profiles into DVD Profiler) is... linking! Before we had "credited as", this just wasn't possible. Sure, this system still has some problems, and we're still stuck with a database largely filled with IMDb-data, but things are slowly getting better, and at least locally I can have 100% accuracy. You may regard "credited as" as a "goodie", but to me, even with its flaws, it's the defining feature that makes using DVD Profiler worthwile.

Tim:

You don't understand the difference bewteen the software and the Rules and how damaging it is to allow everyone to go flying off in theri own direction. I am waiting for Gerri's clarification on the topic.

And BTW just so you know the only cornerstone it serves is at the local level, the CA system does next to nothing at the Online level. It is a personal usage tool. Ken MIGHT choose to make it interface with the Online but I don't see that as likely. I wouldn't, due to the fact that the user Community absolutely refuses to play from one single page, they all want to have their own little page of influence in the online.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registranttony_m
Registered: June 12, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:

kdh1949 is absolutely right. All we have on the matter is a certain clarification from Gerri (link).

Tim,

Thanks for the link to Gerri's comment ("use capitialization rules standard to the language of the cast/crew member's name or nationality"), I think this answers my question.

So, based on the rules (as clarified by Gerri), I will drop the accent when converting the credited "THEO ANGELOPOULOS" to lower case, considering the Greek origin of the name (Theodoros) and the nationality of the director.

T.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
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Quoting skipnet50:
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I am waiting for Gerri's clarification on the topic.

You mean a different clarification than she has already given.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting skipnet50:
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You don't understand the difference bewteen the software and the Rules and how damaging it is to allow everyone to go flying off in theri own direction. I am waiting for Gerri's clarification on the topic.

The problem is: you're not waiting at all. While you "wait" for a further clarification from Gerri, you're going around voting against updates that actually follow the current, official Invelos stance on the matter, and you're presenting your, as of yet conflicting, viewpoint on the matter as fact in response to newbie questions. It's one thing to say: "I am waiting for Gerri's clarification on the topic", but it's another thing to actually do so. Please do. We'll talk again if/when Gerri indeed clarifies some more, okay?
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributor?
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Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting tony_m:
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So, based on the rules (as clarified by Gerri), I will drop the accent when converting the credited "THEO ANGELOPOULOS" to lower case, considering the Greek origin of the name (Theodoros) and the nationality of the director.

T.


and you need to document your change in the contribution notes:
Theo Angelopoulos (if you did not have this one allready  )
Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting tony_m:
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Can we please discuss this specific case, instead of general use of accents/diacritics?
So let me rephrase the original question(s)...


Welcome to the wonderful world of derailed threads.  If you stick around long enough, you'll get used to it. 
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