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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4 ...14  Previous   Next
What does Invelos want?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormarcelb7
Registered: Oct. 16, 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting dee1959jay:
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I agree with Forget as well. I'd position myself somewhat closer to 2 than 3: I'll always try to do it right, but I can't be asked to engage in endless discussions on correct parsing of a name as if the lives of my loved ones depend on it. Life's too short for any of that.

Couldn't agree more, DJ.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
Have Gun Will Travel
Registered: March 13, 2007
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I agree with Forget, Addicted, and dee.  Incomplete, accurate data is acceptable where complete, inaccurate data is not.

My tendencies are toward 3.  I don't contribute too often, though, for a number of reasons, the main one being I don't want to do a partial job and haven't taken the time to do full audits of my titles.  Lately it's been a big job just keeping up with the contributions other people have made.
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
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DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorbbbbb
on steroids
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I am in group 1.
Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect]
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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I think I am a perfectionist, but not at all in group 3. As I understand, people in group 3 want a perfect "per the rules" database. In my case, I want a perfect "as in real life" database. That means no typos, no Francois, no unknown Zhang ZIYI (but yes to ZHANG Ziyi), no T4xi, and good linking for cast and crew... And I also customize useless fields (for example, I use rating details field for French Box-office)

For the online, I would put myself in group 2 users. The only usefulness of online is to be a base for local databases. Group 1 users don't really mind what is precisely in the profiles (but want it to exist), so they probably will not edit them. On the other hand, people as me find the online all the more inadequate for themselves as it follows strictly rules, and will modify their profiles as they wish. The perfection (as per the rules) of the online has only importance for those for whom it is a hobby to follow rules (nothing wrong to have that hobby, but as Gsyren said , you have not so many such users, even if they are very vocal in contribution rule forum...)
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantleo1963
Registered: May 14, 2007
United States Posts: 455
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Quoting Forget_the_Rest:
Quote:
I swing somewhere between 2 & 3. While "Some data is better than no data" is right, "Some inaccurate data is better than no data" is not. I would rather have incomplete profiles than complete profiles that have inaccurate info.



i AGREE completely with this post.  I personally try to get the cast and crew contributions correct by watching the end credits.  I understand this is a long process but it is worth it to me.  If I can share my results and it helps the data be more accurate then I feel I have done my part. 

I feel it is something I owe all the user of DVDP since it is a great app and very inexpensive.  It is a shame that some users are being "run off" by others.  Folks here can say what they want, I have learned over the years not to take things personally.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Good enough is not good enough. In the old days users could submit whatever they liked, we even scraped IMDb. Once ken made IMDb off limits, a couple of us saw the problem coming and decided to begin to take some steps to head it off at the pass. Unlike surfeur's comment, the Rules are based on real data not user fiction or imaguination, that includes typos because that is user fiction if it is correcting a film company typo (as opposed to a user-generated typo). Real life has nothing to do with the online, that is what your local database is for.

Along with ken's change relative to IMDb, this place used to be a mess, as users battled on a weekly as users battled over how titles were to be sorted, whose Overview would be in the database, even which database the Actor data might come from, which had nothing to do with the ONLY real source for such data, the film, tell me which film IMDb or any other outside database has produced. This became painfully apparent as problem as my collection grew from 1 DVD to thousands. While I sympathize with Yves' position, it simply does not belong in the Online database because it is based on the user's imagination or preference. Let's take a sample typo, collor, is it color or colour, either could be correct, but not according to the real data which the Online is based upon, if you (the user) wants to use the Queen's English it would be colour, OTOH if an American wished to fix that typo it would be color, again both of which are correct for the USER but neither of which are correct to the data, and it sets up a battle such as we used to have as users fight over their own interpretation.

If the data is based on the REAL data then data input is easier for everyone, and they are then free to manipulate their own data as they wish. WE had users trying to manipulate the Sort field, their wishes for sorting were perfectly reasonable for THEM, but they completely disregarded every other user in the Community. The Online being based on real data, not imaginary data, eliminates the ping-ponging we used to see ALL the time. How many of you saw the recent Contribution in which a user, instead of following the Rules, and taking the Overview from the back cover, decided to write the great Ammerican novel summarizing the movie. And in the words he wrote me, his was better than . It's this kind of nonsense we are trying to avaoid.

I am sorry surfeur, I have told you before and I will always tell you that, what you want belongs locally, NOT in the Online, unless you are fixing a user-generated typo, God knows I do generate enough typos to fill a computer.

For those that like to whine about documentation. It's not that hard either, I have sai before teh Notes I generate and documentation I provide is for YOU and to a lesser degree for ME (in the future). That way we can all see what was done, how and why. Creating a CLT link based on the Name Variant Tool ALONE is usually pretty dangerous. There are times when I am willing to grant some slack in this area, for example a Credit in a TV show that reads Howard Johnson and the very next show says Howard E. Johnson, I think we can reasonably conclude that they are the same person, who for reasons unknown to us changed his billing. My collection is larger than many of you, but nowhere near as large as some, I do not find the Rules in any way difficult to deal with or comply with, I really do believe that perhaps with some language issues aside, that there are users who simply want to create problems where none really exist, I don't know why, I don't really care. I will continue to offer guidance when I can, this has been a labor of love for me for five years now....a thankless labor of love, but I will continue.

The function of the Rules was to create a single page from which all users operate from instead of allowing the Online to be ruled by the opinions and preferences of a users. That is why they are completely based on REAL data which is culled from whatever the source is to be, back cover, the DVD Menus, the film credits et al. Not what somebody thinks it should be, but what it REALLY is, what somebody thinks or wants has a place but it is not the Online.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantBattling Butler
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 811
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thanks GSyren for one of the best posts I read in a long time 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
So – the bottom line is this: Does Invelos want a comprehensive, good but not perfect, database, or do they want a smaller but perfect database. And don’t say comprehensive and perfect, because that’s just not going to happen.

One can only speculate, but I think Invelos is structured for a comprehensive, good but not perfect, database. I'm sure they would love perfection, but they have acknowledged in recent comments that they will accept a contribution if it contains mostly correct information. They allowed in their comments that an error could be accepted and fixed later.

Also, their recent comments that one generally only needs to source to the CLT for common name linking included statements that users desiring a higher level of accuracy could do so in their own db. This to me says Invelos strives for good but not perfect.

I try to make my contributions as accurate as possible. For voting, I keep Invelos' recent comments in mind and I try not to demand perfection of others, unless there's some good data being removed or something. But if the user is adding an overview without the bold and italics, it's not a big deal.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I guess I'm in a minority (in the forum, at least) because on reflection I realize that I'm in group 2 leaning towards group 1.

I collect films (and TV series), not film data. So for me DVD Profiler is just a tool to help me keep track of which DVDs I own and which I have watched.

I try to use it in accordance with the rules when I contribute, but quite frankly I see very little practical benefit from insisting on perfect data. Typos may be "real data" but they carry no real value for me. What I want from the overview is some idea as to the plot of the movie. Formatting adds very little to that, typos nothing at all. In this regards I guess I see things a little like Surfeur does. But I accept the rules and don't argue about it...

It would be interesting to know if those who lean towards group 3 have pondered why "good data" is so important to them. Is it just the principle of it all, or do you actually find that it has a practical impact of some sort? If Jean-Claude//Van Damme didn't link up with an erroneous entry of Jean-Claude/Van/Damme, would you be likely to think that you were missing one of his films and go out and buy it, not realizing you already owned it, for example?
(No, I'm not a JCVD completist, it was just an example  )

This is in no way meant to deride those who do require perfect data. I'm just curious as to your motives.
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
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While I understand what James is saying above... Ken also made the statement that such a small thing wrong/against the rules is a legitimate reason for voting no as well. So personally I always vote no with reason for anything that is against the rules, incorrect or against statements made by Ken and/or Gerri... knowing full well that it could still go through... but it will highlight for the submitter and the screener that there is something wrong no matter how small it is.

Then it is...

1. Up to the submitter if they want to fix the problem or take the chance that the contribution could get declined.

2. Up to the screener if what I point out is reason enough to decline it or if they want to let it go through anyway.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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James:

With all due respect, james. You make the statement that Invelos might like perfection and I agree. But that is up to us, those who are willing to settle for less, or those who are npt providing comprehensive notes are not moving us toward that goal. I find those failing to provide comoprehensive, simply because it is not required to be the far more objectionable of the two. As you noted an Overview that is not properly italicized or bolded is easily fixable, and would be probably get a Yes vote with a Comment, hoping the user would fix it himself.

We as users can choose to raise all boats or lower the river, some of us are intent on lowering the river and dumbing down the database to the lowest common denominator.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
I guess I'm in a minority (in the forum, at least) because on reflection I realize that I'm in group 2 leaning towards group 1.

I collect films (and TV series), not film data. So for me DVD Profiler is just a tool to help me keep track of which DVDs I own and which I have watched.

I try to use it in accordance with the rules when I contribute, but quite frankly I see very little practical benefit from insisting on perfect data. Typos may be "real data" but they carry no real value for me. What I want from the overview is some idea as to the plot of the movie. Formatting adds very little to that, typos nothing at all. In this regards I guess I see things a little like Surfeur does. But I accept the rules and don't argue about it...

It would be interesting to know if those who lean towards group 3 have pondered why "good data" is so important to them. Is it just the principle of it all, or do you actually find that it has a practical impact of some sort? If Jean-Claude//Van Damme didn't link up with an erroneous entry of Jean-Claude/Van/Damme, would you be likely to think that you were missing one of his films and go out and buy it, not realizing you already owned it, for example?
(No, I'm not a JCVD completist, it was just an example  )


With a library of DVDs up well past 1,000 something like this is a possibility.

Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
This is in no way meant to deride those who do require perfect data. I'm just curious as to your motives.


I always wanted the information in Profiler to be accurate to the actual DVD release. that is why I like cast and crew to be per the credits... why I like to see a typo in the overview if there is one on the back cover... and why I like to see Bold and Italics in the overview if there is bold and  Italics on the case. In a collection program I like accuracy to the source material... and in our case that source material is the DVD itself.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
I guess I'm in a minority (in the forum, at least) because on reflection I realize that I'm in group 2 leaning towards group 1.

I collect films (and TV series), not film data. So for me DVD Profiler is just a tool to help me keep track of which DVDs I own and which I have watched.

I try to use it in accordance with the rules when I contribute, but quite frankly I see very little practical benefit from insisting on perfect data. Typos may be "real data" but they carry no real value for me. What I want from the overview is some idea as to the plot of the movie. Formatting adds very little to that, typos nothing at all. In this regards I guess I see things a little like Surfeur does. But I accept the rules and don't argue about it...

It would be interesting to know if those who lean towards group 3 have pondered why "good data" is so important to them. Is it just the principle of it all, or do you actually find that it has a practical impact of some sort? If Jean-Claude//Van Damme didn't link up with an erroneous entry of Jean-Claude/Van/Damme, would you be likely to think that you were missing one of his films and go out and buy it, not realizing you already owned it, for example?
(No, I'm not a JCVD completist, it was just an example  )


With a library of DVDs up well past 1,000 something like this is a possibility.

Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
This is in no way meant to deride those who do require perfect data. I'm just curious as to your motives.


I always wanted the information in Profiler to be accurate to the actual DVD release. that is why I like cast and crew to be per the credits... why I like to see a typo in the overview if there is one on the back cover... and why I like to see Bold and Italics in the overview if there is bold and  Italics on the case. In a collection program I like accuracy to the source material... and in our case that source material is the DVD itself.

Seconded, Pete. And that is also why the rules are based on REAL data as opposed to user preference.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantDr. Killpatient
Here's my card
Registered: May 19, 2007
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Off topic so: Spoiler:  (Select to view)
I just wanted to edge in here to comment that Skip is being exceptionally well spoken here.  (Complement)
 Last edited: by Dr. Killpatient
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantCartmin
Registered: March 16, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 32
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
I guess I'm in a minority (in the forum, at least) because on reflection I realize that I'm in group 2 leaning towards group 1.

I collect films (and TV series), not film data. So for me DVD Profiler is just a tool to help me keep track of which DVDs I own and which I have watched.

I try to use it in accordance with the rules when I contribute, but quite frankly I see very little practical benefit from insisting on perfect data. Typos may be "real data" but they carry no real value for me. What I want from the overview is some idea as to the plot of the movie. Formatting adds very little to that, typos nothing at all. In this regards I guess I see things a little like Surfeur does. But I accept the rules and don't argue about it...

It would be interesting to know if those who lean towards group 3 have pondered why "good data" is so important to them. Is it just the principle of it all, or do you actually find that it has a practical impact of some sort? If Jean-Claude//Van Damme didn't link up with an erroneous entry of Jean-Claude/Van/Damme, would you be likely to think that you were missing one of his films and go out and buy it, not realizing you already owned it, for example?
(No, I'm not a JCVD completist, it was just an example  )

This is in no way meant to deride those who do require perfect data. I'm just curious as to your motives.




Thankyou for your  'common sense' thread and approach,  which I for one completely agree with.


Group 1 people probably dont post alot in here anyways, and if their newly bought dvd is in the database great , if it isn't wait 'till it is or learn to submit their own contibutions.

Alot of Group 2 people (me) probably read alot in the forums but still do not post due to various reasons (we won't go into them here)

Most replies you will get here are probably 2 or 3 or 2-3 people , which probably aren't in the majority of users , but are instrumental in shaping of the program.

People are different , and as a result require different things , Invelos try to cater for all (I guess) , but I get the feeling they lean towards group 3 (my opinion) .


Again , like you at the risk of getting flamed for upsetting people ,  here goes ....

Everytime I see an up-coming release from Ken for example I personally think wahoo .... updated on-line look (partially interactive) ....new skins .....integrated preview.... player ....but no ...we get additional fields for this that and the other and alot of 'minor' changes (imo) that most people (not the ones that reply in the forums ) will never ever use.

Cast / Good Quality Images ( not two front cover scans ....how the hell does that exist in the database ? ) easily readable basic technical info  ....various scans available for the same upc# tp choose from ....YES  , crew .... not really intrested other than director producer etc , dob's / parsing / changing a - for a _ in an overview / media companies ..... .....most of what we see currently in the voting arena ???  ....who gives a monkeys ?

I know there are some add-ons / myprofiler etc etc .... but I am not a computer whizz and dont have the aptitude for programming .... or want to open a hosting account elsewhere ..... BUT I would pay more for these features from Invelos.

Again people,  this is just my opinion ....some people here ( the old crew mainly ) ... have very high standards , thats great and I personally try (like many others) , to apply their advice , and forum opinion to make sure my contribution(s) or whatever  I choose to submit is good data , but I still wouldnt sit thru end credits for minor crew additions for example.

I honestly do believe that this database could be slightly better than it is ... but lets face it guys it's a GREAT program , with a GREAT database which has become that way because of the 'shaping' of others .... thankyou all for that ....but we should look to be expanding our contributors not putting them off as currently seems to be the case.

No offence to any persons intended ,

Best Regards to all

Cartmin.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
With all due respect, james. You make the statement that Invelos might like perfection and I agree. But that is up to us, those who are willing to settle for less, or those who are npt providing comprehensive notes are not moving us toward that goal. I find those failing to provide comoprehensive, simply because it is not required to be the far more objectionable of the two

The goal of what you refer to as "comprehensive notes" (which I understand your shorthand to refer to things like: listing all crew roles in the notes, Name A=Name B documentation for every name link, listing the Disc ID in the notes, etc.) is not an Invelos goal. If you want comprehensive notes, you will have to convince them to add that requirement to the rules. Regarding what you find "objectionable", if Invelos' goals and their rules are not in synch with your goals and preferences, you will continue to be dissatisfied with Invelos and those of us who follow their lead.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
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