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How we moderate (Locked)
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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Another thing that I have noticed, outside of these couple of threads dealing with moderation, the posts that Skip has been making have been civil, and even could say helpful.  There hasen't been any fighting or name calling in a couple of days (outside of this forum).
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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Quoting CharlieM:
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I think before anybody says let bygones be bygones, everybody needs to HONESTLY answer this question.
(if any of you have an question about my sincerity, please read my past posts)

If I started a thread that directly called out Skip, on any topic relating to Invelos, how many of you would call me to the mat for it.

Now think about that before you answer.  I don't think that there are 5 of you that would.  I don't think half of you could answer this truthfully to yourself.

Charlie

I would, and have.  I have taken quite a bit of flack, from a few users, for doing just that.  I have seen several users do the same thing...Pete comes to mind...so that's 2.  3 more left. 


But that is the point I make.  You defend Skip, and all H**l breaks loose.  That is also not acceptible behavior.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDoubleDownAgain
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Quoting CharlieM:
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And until Skip is banned, there is a group that won't be happy.


I'm not so sure of this.  There might be a very small minority, but I think most that everyone has issues with Skip just wants everyone to be accountable for their actions.  That way, either people behave or they suffer the consequences.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDoubleDownAgain
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Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
I think before anybody says let bygones be bygones, everybody needs to HONESTLY answer this question.
(if any of you have an question about my sincerity, please read my past posts)

If I started a thread that directly called out Skip, on any topic relating to Invelos, how many of you would call me to the mat for it.

Now think about that before you answer.  I don't think that there are 5 of you that would.  I don't think half of you could answer this truthfully to yourself.

Charlie

I would, and have.  I have taken quite a bit of flack, from a few users, for doing just that.  I have seen several users do the same thing...Pete comes to mind...so that's 2.  3 more left. 


But that is the point I make.  You defend Skip, and all H**l breaks loose.  That is also not acceptible behavior.


Agreed, I think maybe when people defend him others think they are defending him for everything, not that isolated incident.  Not that is an excuse, but a reason.  There is obviously bad blood on both sides and I've seen both sides read something into posts that wasn't there that ended up in causing even more ruckus.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting CharlieM:
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Quoting northbloke:
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I think one of the problems is, as Staid says, the moderators are also the screeners. And I would guess most of their time is spent screening, not moderating.
I'm assuming that they have some sort of system in place where enough red flags in a thread alert the screeners to go look, so maybe either the threshold is set too high or we as users aren't using the flags enough and are using posts, not arrows, to show our displeasure.

@Charlie, you're right, if I saw a thread singling out Skip for something, I probably wouldn't leap to his defence. I would consider it payback for all the times he has done it to others. Childish - probably, but I think that's human nature. But at the same time I'd like to think I'd know enough not to become an active part of that thread, possibly even posting to say something like "you shouldn't do this really."



At least you are honest about it, but then, is also part of the issue.  Everybody says lets move forward, and people aren't willing (or capable)

I look at this way, If Skip decided to play nice today, and start this forward, how long would it be before somebody said something, that was a slight at Skip in some fashion or another.

The way it sounds, is there is too much resentment to go around.  And until Skip is banned, there is a group that won't be happy.

Precisely why no one should be banned, ever. Since ken instituted this system the temperature in the Forums has continued to rise at a faster clip than ever. Whe users feel at liberty to create threads which are nothing more than a thinly veiled, or in some cases not veiled at all, without repurcussions in any way, that is an unacceptable double standard, such behavior  should NEVER EVER be accepted by any user. The poll started by another user a few days ago was just that, did the mods sanction it, shut it down or remove it in any way, NO they did NOT, until there was many pages of malicious and hostile behavior aimed at one user.

Are threads such as I am leaving, appropriate. No, NEVER, they even if such threads are not in and of themselves an attack, on anyone, they are oft times used as a springboard to such behavior by others.

Unfortunately, Geri, I don't see this changing very much as long as Invelos continues to turn a blind eye to the bad behavior of some, while sanctioning others, that is simply unacceptable behavior on Invelos part.

Invelos has created a very poisonous environment, one which I won't tell them how to fix. Though there are ways. I will only do what I can do and i will continue to hold out my hand in both peace and friendship, if anyone chooses to accept it great I am all for it, those that are so eaten alive by their own venom that they simply refuse...then let the judgement fall on YOUR head. As my wife would say to this, You will have to answer for that one day, and you may not like the answer, because their is no redo at that point.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
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Quoting CharlieM:
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I look at this way, If Skip decided to play nice today, and start this forward, how long would it be before somebody said something, that was a slight at Skip in some fashion or another.


That's the problem. Something that was a slight or something Skip thought was a slight? I've never brought up Skip's behavior except in direct response to a post he made demonstrating his behavior and in threads about moderation, yet he seems to think I'm part of a conspiracy against him.

Quote:
The way it sounds, is there is too much resentment to go around.  And until Skip is banned, there is a group that won't be happy.


Here's how I perceive this line of reasoning. I and numerous other users have been dealing with this for nearly 10 years. Posts like this make me feel like I'm being told that even mentioning there is a problem, much less trying to do anything about it is the same thing as causing the problem in the first place and the only civilized option is continue to ignore bad behavior and let it go on another decade even though it's driven away a considerable number of prominent users and countless newbies.

Saying we should all drop it is easy, but ignoring problems doesn't solve them. I don't demand Skip be banned. I don't care if he even apologizes. All I want is that the other users and I not have to put up with constant abuse. We should be able to make feature requests without being lectured about how we clearly don't understand the purpose of DVD Profiler, talk about rules interpretation without being accused of trying to hijack the database for our own purposes, have disagreements without being called stupid or that we're just trying to be disagreeable and newbies should be able to ask newbie questions without being belittled for being newbies. As long as this happens, I'll be happy whether Skip is here or not.
 Last edited: by Ace_of_Sevens
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
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ARGHHHHHH Ace, I have no greens left.

Man, you speak for me, too.

I don't care what's done, what's not done, who's banned, who's not banned. Just some amicable discussion would be nice. 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAntares
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Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
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Here's how I perceive this line of reasoning. I and numerous other users have been dealing with this for nearly 10 years. Posts like this make me feel like I'm being told that even mentioning there is a problem, much less tryign to do anythign about it is the same thing as causing the problem in the first place and the only civilized option is continue to ignore bad behavior and let it go on another decade even though it's driven away a considerable number of prominent users and countless newbies.

Saying we should all drop it is easy, but ignoring problems doesn't solve them. I don't demand Skip be banned. I don't care if he even apologizes. All I want is that the other users and I not have to put up with constant abuse. We should be able to make feature requests without being lectured about how we clearly don't understand the purpose of DVD Profiler, talk about rules interpretation without being accused of trying to hijack the database for our own purposes, have disagreements without being called stupid or saying we're just trying to be disagreeable and newbies shoudl be able to ask newbies questions without being belittled for being newbies. As long as this happens, I'll be happy whether Skip is here or not.



AMEN! Brother
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
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Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
I look at this way, If Skip decided to play nice today, and start this forward, how long would it be before somebody said something, that was a slight at Skip in some fashion or another.


I doubt it would take long at all.  You can't control that kind of behavior.

The far more interesting question is would Skip use the red arrow and then move along? Or would he fight back and bring us right back to where we are today?  And obviously those same questions apply to others as well.

As for your other question, I honestly have to say I agree with northbloke.  I'd probably laugh, not say anything, but try to stay out of it myself.  That's assuming that nothing around here changes. If we can get the changes 91% of the respondents want in that poll, then I would most certainly jump in with a red arrow, then move along.  Especially if those changes can bring a real change in most of the users here.  If Skip played by the rules, I'd absolutely come to his defense.  But we have no rules.  At least none that are consistently enforced.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
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Quoting CharlieM:
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Another thing that I have noticed, outside of these couple of threads dealing with moderation, the posts that Skip has been making have been civil, and even could say helpful.  There hasen't been any fighting or name calling in a couple of days (outside of this forum).


While I don't follow things closely, I did notice a great and helpful post from Skip last night.  And I gave him a green arrow for his efforts.

There seems to be this perception that most people want Skip banned.  I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know of anyone off the top of my head that feels it's too late for him at this point.  I'd much rather see him (along with everyone else) follow the rules and be productive members here.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
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Quoting Alien Redrum:
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ARGHHHHHH Ace, I have no greens left.

Man, you speak for me, too.

I don't care what's done, what's not done, who's banned, who's not banned. Just some amicable discussion would be nice. 

Simple answer then. Alien.

Take me up on my offer.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
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Quoting Mark Harrison:
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I'd much rather see him (along with everyone else) follow the rules and be productive members here.


For what's it's worth I've been saying this and hearing it said for years.  That's why I'm in support of the poll.  I don't think real peace will last long without real consequences.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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Quoting Mark Harrison:
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Quoting CharlieM:
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Another thing that I have noticed, outside of these couple of threads dealing with moderation, the posts that Skip has been making have been civil, and even could say helpful.  There hasen't been any fighting or name calling in a couple of days (outside of this forum).


While I don't follow things closely, I did notice a great and helpful post from Skip last night.  And I gave him a green arrow for his efforts.

There seems to be this perception that most people want Skip banned.  I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know of anyone off the top of my head that feels it's too late for him at this point.  I'd [b]much rather see him (along with everyone else) follow the rules and be productive members here.[/b]

Therein lies a piece of the problem. Whose definition, YOURS. Whose Rules of behavior are being followed, Antares', The Queens, first of NO, second off you aren't qualified to sit in judgement of another's behavior particularly on the Internet you haven't sufficient information to make ANY sort of determination. You simply aren't qualified, and neither am I, I will not have YOUR standards imposed upon me, nor will I try to impose mine on you. I have never said everyone wants to ban a given user, but there are clearly a number who have that as their agenda. Now to delve off into  a poltical vein for a moment merely to make analogy. there are those who would say all Islamists are not radicals or extremists ( a point I would agree with), there are also those that would then ask where are the Islamist believers that are vocally condemning the actions of these agenda and ideologue driven radicals (another point I would agree with) while al or not radicals or extremsits, just a few of the whole, by your silence you condemn yourself.

And so far the moderation has been unevenly applied at best, and while i don't doubt for second any of Gerri has said in this regard. The various double standards are blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes, and yes I can see more than one. I can certainly see what Taro perceives as a double standard, as well as my own, in addition to a variety of others. I believe that I understand the reason for this, but that I will keep to myself, as it is certain to cause a row.
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 Last edited: by Winston Smith
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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
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Therein lies a piece of the problem. Whose definition, YOURS. Whose Rules of behavior are being followed.


No, we follow Invelos' definition of rules of behaviour. It's their forum, their rules. You want to know what their definition of unacceptable behaviour is? Look back at all the posts you've had moderated - that's what they consider unacceptable behaviour.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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Quoting Mark Harrison:
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Quoting CharlieM:
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Another thing that I have noticed, outside of these couple of threads dealing with moderation, the posts that Skip has been making have been civil, and even could say helpful.  There hasen't been any fighting or name calling in a couple of days (outside of this forum).


While I don't follow things closely, I did notice a great and helpful post from Skip last night.  And I gave him a green arrow for his efforts.

There seems to be this perception that most people want Skip banned.  I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know of anyone off the top of my head that feels it's too late for him at this point.  I'd much rather see him (along with everyone else) follow the rules and be productive members here.



Skip has a lot of useful information,that he wants to impart on people, although I think sometimes he needs to find a better method

Quote:
The far more interesting question is would Skip use the red arrow and then move along? Or would he fight back and bring us right back to where we are today?  And obviously those same questions apply to others as well.


And for anything to work, means we also must self moderate (the best moderator for you is you).  There are a number of people that don't self moderate.  If you are thinking that this is the wrong response and I know its the wrong response, and do it anyway, that is a problem.

Quoting Northbloke

Quote:
No, we follow Invelos' definition of rules of behaviour. It's their forum, their rules. You want to know what their definition of unacceptable behaviour is? Look back at all the posts you've had moderated - that's what they consider unacceptable behaviour.


While in theory I would agree.  Since it isn't consistent, they are sending a mixed message.  I would actually contend, a better measure might be, what would you tell your children about their behavior if they acted the way you (in a general you) are about to?  (for those that have children)

Charlie
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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I know their Rules north. The problem is interpretation of same, for example, your post is fraught with hostility which to me is a TOS violation. I am not interested in your interpretatiion or having it imposed upon me, I am also not interested in having mine imposed upon you. And if you understand anything about governance the more you try to tighten things down, the more loopholes you open up. I don't know if you are familiar with it, but there is a case where a young high school girl was taunted on the "net, not unlike here i fact, I am familiar with all the details, by a mother of an acquaintance pretending to be a friend and then tearing her to shreds.  The young girl was distraught by this and committed suicide. To me this woman clearly had committed manslaughter at the very least, if not out and out murder, but because of the way the law had been constructed and narrowed over the years, this woman will skate on ANY culpability in the death of this high school student. Now, of course, the law is being revised NOW, but that will get justice for this girl or here agrieved loved ones. We, as a group, are no better than that abusive adult woman.
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Billy Video
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