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ADR Voices
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
What I think concerning IMDB is if they are listed at the end of the cast, they are cast and if they are listed elsewhere in the crew credits they are other crew no matter how they are credited on screen.

I might agree with you except for the fact that, as an example, Billy Jackson and Katie Jackson, who are credited amongst the crew, are included in their LotRs cast list.


Yeah I can't Figure it out. Frank Welker, probably the most famous voice actor. They have him listed in actor, Misc. Crew, Sound Dept. And Music Dept. Go figure. Don't know what their standards are but they seem all over the place.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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It's snide remarks like this that give me the impression you were being insulting.  If you want to discuss, I will discuss.  If you want to be snide, don't bother as I won't be playing that game.


Yupp,
I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument and you call that "snide remarks". Sure, I could have said it somewhat nicer, but it all runs up to IMDb is in no way a trustworthy source for any kind of information.
So your point that IMDb lists ADR as Crew is somewhat moot.

Come to that you still haven't answered my question: Since when does Crew get casted?

To go back to Ken's statement, probably it's best to tear it into it's pieces and show you why I interpret it like I do.
If you find any flaws in it feel free to correct me.

Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
On the latest topic, there is no exclusion for Additional Voices - if they're in the credits, they should be included.

Here we have the introduction, which explains why Ken felt inclined to respond ("On the latest topic") in addition we have a first ruling explicitly for "Additional Voices". If the statement would have stopped here I would probably be on your side of the fence.

Quote:
We include similar non-specific live-action credits, such as an actor credited as "Various roles".We also include specific voice actors,

Here we find Ken's reasons for his ruling, which basically runs in the lines of "Consistency".

Quote:
so I don't see a compelling reason to exclude non-specific voice credits.

Here's the interesting part (bolded by me). In his second ruling within this post Ken is even widening his first ruling (Additional Voice) to all "Non-Specific Voice credits".
Why should he have done that if it wasn't for including all?
He easily could have kept the term from the first sentence, or completely omit the last half-sentence and thereby would have kept his ruling limited to "Additional Voices".
I assume (and here's probably the flaw in my interpretation) that he did this on purpose. But until Ken states otherwise the contrary is too only an assumption.
And, as I learned in Law-school, when you have two colliding interpretations: Remain with the exact words. These are, as I already said, quite clear.

To go back to your remark about "cherry picking" (which, of course, wasn't snide at all!): I sometimes ask myself who might be the cherry picker? The one who only reads the first sentence of a statement, or the one who reads it to the end and puts it into it's context?
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,131
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:

It's snide remarks like this that give me the impression you were being insulting.  If you want to discuss, I will discuss.  If you want to be snide, don't bother as I won't be playing that game.


Yupp,
I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument and you call that "snide remarks". Sure, I could have said it somewhat nicer, but it all runs up to IMDb is in no way a trustworthy source for any kind of information.
So your point that IMDb lists ADR as Crew is somewhat moot.

Come to that you still haven't answered my question: Since when does Crew get casted?

To go back to Ken's statement, probably it's best to tear it into it's pieces and show you why I interpret it like I do.
If you find any flaws in it feel free to correct me.

Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
On the latest topic, there is no exclusion for Additional Voices - if they're in the credits, they should be included.

Here we have the introduction, which explains why Ken felt inclined to respond ("On the latest topic") in addition we have a first ruling explicitly for "Additional Voices". If the statement would have stopped here I would probably be on your side of the fence.

Quote:
We include similar non-specific live-action credits, such as an actor credited as "Various roles".We also include specific voice actors,

Here we find Ken's reasons for his ruling, which basically runs in the lines of "Consistency".

Quote:
so I don't see a compelling reason to exclude non-specific voice credits.

Here's the interesting part (bolded by me). In his second ruling within this post Ken is even widening his first ruling (Additional Voice) to all "Non-Specific Voice credits".
Why should he have done that if it wasn't for including all?
He easily could have kept the term from the first sentence, or completely omit the last half-sentence and thereby would have kept his ruling limited to "Additional Voices".
I assume (and here's probably the flaw in my interpretation) that he did this on purpose. But until Ken states otherwise the contrary is too only an assumption.
And, as I learned in Law-school, when you have two colliding interpretations: Remain with the exact words. These are, as I already said, quite clear.

To go back to your remark about "cherry picking" (which, of course, wasn't snide at all!): I sometimes ask myself who might be the cherry picker? The one who only reads the first sentence of a statement, or the one who reads it to the end and puts it into it's context?


I agree. That is how I read it. And until he states otherwise, I consider ADR & Loop a legit voice credit. And I hope they don't write the contribution rules like the do a law, 20 pages of text when 1 distinct sentence would do.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
Registered: December 10, 2007
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Yeah I can't Figure it out. Frank Welker, probably the most famous voice actor. They have him listed in actor, Misc. Crew, Sound Dept. And Music Dept. Go figure. Don't know what their standards are but they seem all over the place.


That's because Frank does different kinds of work. Sometimes he's doing animal sounds, which is essentially sound effects work. Sometimes, he's playing a character, like on Futurama or Scooby Doo.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,131
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Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
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Yeah I can't Figure it out. Frank Welker, probably the most famous voice actor. They have him listed in actor, Misc. Crew, Sound Dept. And Music Dept. Go figure. Don't know what their standards are but they seem all over the place.


That's because Frank does different kinds of work. Sometimes he's doing animal sounds, which is essentially sound effects work. Sometimes, he's playing a character, like on Futurama or Scooby Doo.


I get those but music dept.? didn't know he sang.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
Yupp,
I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument and you call that "snide remarks". Sure, I could have said it somewhat nicer, but it all runs up to IMDb is in no way a trustworthy source for any kind of information.
So your point that IMDb lists ADR as Crew is somewhat moot.

You didn't point out a flaw, you made a sarcastic remark based on your personal opinion that IMDb is, "in no way, a trustworthy source for any kind of information"...a statement that, I might add, is beyond ridiculous.
Quote:
Come to that you still haven't answered my question: Since when does Crew get casted?

I haven't answered because the answer should be obvious to anybody that was paying attention...as I believe ADR is crew, then I must also believe that those crew get cast.
Quote:
To go back to your remark about "cherry picking" (which, of course, wasn't snide at all!):

It was neither snide nor sarcastic, just a statement as to how your comment came across.
Quote:
I sometimes ask myself who might be the cherry picker? The one who only reads the first sentence of a statement, or the one who reads it to the end and puts it into it's context?

As I put his statement...the entire statement...into the context of the entire discussion, I believe we know how I would answer that question.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting ateo357:
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I agree. That is how I read it. And until he states otherwise, I consider ADR & Loop a legit voice credit. And I hope they don't write the contribution rules like the do a law, 20 pages of text when 1 distinct sentence would do.

I disagree.  That is not how I read it and, until he states otherwise, I will consider ADR & Loop Group to be crew and, looking at the poll...which has grown a bit since I last commented on it...I am not alone in this view.  So what now? 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
Posted:
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
Yupp,
I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument and you call that "snide remarks". Sure, I could have said it somewhat nicer, but it all runs up to IMDb is in no way a trustworthy source for any kind of information.
So your point that IMDb lists ADR as Crew is somewhat moot.

You didn't point out a flaw, you made a sarcastic remark based on your personal opinion that IMDb is, "in no way, a trustworthy source for any kind of information"...a statement that, I might add, is beyond ridiculous.

Learn something about SOURCES, a source is where the data originates. IMDb is a database that publishes and interprets collected data, but it's not the source of the information.
Regarding the trustworthiness: I guess we've all seen enough mistakes from IMDb (aside of the already quoted Joseph McCarthy incident) to be able to judge this. And as long as they don't publish the source of their information they will never be entirely trustworthy.
Mind you, that doesn't necessarily mean that the data is incorrect. But without deeper research you'll never know.

Quote:
Quote:
Come to that you still haven't answered my question: Since when does Crew get casted?

I haven't answered because the answer should be obvious to anybody that was paying attention...as I believe ADR is crew, then I must also believe that those crew get cast.

You don't mean this seriously, do you?
Now if this isn't a contradiction in itself.

EDIT:
But to sum it up a bit:
My interpretation is supported by the exact words of Ken's statement.
Your interpretation is supported by your belief that he meant something different than he wrote.

A brighter man than me once said: When it comes to belief all logic is lost.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
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I agree. That is how I read it. And until he states otherwise, I consider ADR & Loop a legit voice credit. And I hope they don't write the contribution rules like the do a law, 20 pages of text when 1 distinct sentence would do.

I disagree.  That is not how I read it and, until he states otherwise, I will consider ADR & Loop Group to be crew and, looking at the poll...which has grown a bit since I last commented on it...I am not alone in this view.  So what now? 


Well it looks like were are on opposite sides of the fence. And the poll can be 100 to 1 and my thinking that they are cast would not change. Even if Ken posts on here that they are crew wouldn't make a difference in my thinking. All it would do would keep me from contributing them. I would still consider them cast. But I would be one of the first to remove them from existing profiles.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Well it looks like were are on opposite sides of the fence. And the poll can be 100 to 1 and my thinking that they are cast would not change. Even if Ken posts on here that they are crew wouldn't make a difference in my thinking. All it would do would keep me from contributing them. I would still consider them cast. But I would be one of the first to remove them from existing profiles.


Agreed
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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United States Posts: 13,198
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
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Learn something about SOURCES, a source is where the data originates. IMDb is a database that publishes and interprets collected data, but it's not the source of the information.

Are we really going to play this silly game?  We all know what I meant and plenty of people use IMDb as a source.
Quote:
Regarding the trustworthiness: I guess we've all seen enough mistakes from IMDb (aside of the already quoted Joseph McCarthy incident) to be able to judge this.

We have all seen enough mistakes in film credits.  Does that mean they are untrustworthy as well?  Of course not.  As with all things, mistakes happen that doesn't mean they can't be trusted.
Quote:
And as long as they don't publish the source of their information they will never be entirely trustworthy.

While they don't give specifics, they do publish the source of their information.  Whether or not you choose to believe them, well, that is entirely up to you.
Quote:
Mind you, that doesn't necessarily mean that the data is incorrect. But without deeper research you'll never know.

No, I won't ever know for sure, but they are supported by the industry...starting in 1999, the WGA began furnishing credits directly to IMDb...so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:
You don't mean this seriously, do you?
Now if this isn't a contradiction in itself.

I was dead serious.  ADR, outside of people who are recording actual roles, are the same as Foley Artist...meaning they provide sound effects.  While they are cast... meaning chosen for their ability to provide said sound effects...they are still crew.
Quote:

EDIT:
But to sum it up a bit:
My interpretation is supported by the exact words of Ken's statement.
Your interpretation is supported by your belief that he meant something different than he wrote.

Nice try, but no.  You interpreted Ken's words one way, and because you did, you believe they are supported by the exact words of his statement.  While you may believe otherwise, that is no different than what I am doing.  What is different, however, is that I am the only one willing to admit to that little fact...or so it seems.  As you aren't going to change my opinion, and I am not going to change yours, there really isn't any point in arguing further.  If/when Ken decides to clarify, I will, as always, comply with that decision...whether I agree with it or not.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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United States Posts: 13,198
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Well it looks like were are on opposite sides of the fence. And the poll can be 100 to 1 and my thinking that they are cast would not change. Even if Ken posts on here that they are crew wouldn't make a difference in my thinking. All it would do would keep me from contributing them. I would still consider them cast. But I would be one of the first to remove them from existing profiles.

Indeed we are...which isn't a bad thing, it's the nature of the beast.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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Update to the ADR contribution submitted. 6 to 1 in favor. It was approved today by the screeners. Waiting on the release.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorbbbbb
on steroids
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Invelos has made a stand against the majority of the users (14:39 poll result):







Additional Dialogue Replacement voices are Cast. No role needed. No matter where in the credits. A sad day.

Expect a lot of Cast "corrections" from the usual suspects.
Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect]
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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Quoting bbbbb:
Additional Dialogue Replacement voices are Cast. No role needed. No matter where in the credits. A sad day.

Expect a lot of Cast "corrections" from the usual suspects.


It may change BY and Common names for alot of actors. You've got alot to look forward to.
 Last edited: by ateo357
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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This takes me to my pet peeve. Those that know what's coming close your eyes. Lol

Give us open credits where we in wysiwyt, we can put in as much as little data as any given user wishes, and on the update side we can accept or refuse as much as we like. Then lets do it. But this endless game of shoehorning data in making it of little value, if any at all, has to end along with relatively mindless discussions they generate as someone tries to find a loophole to permit their favorite missing credit.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
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