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Valid credits?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributoriPatsa
Zzzzzzz
Registered: March 13, 2007
Sweden Posts: 2,943
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Add principal units only, disclude any secondary units. If you can't figure out which is what, don't bother.
Patrik
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Registered: May 19, 2007
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Quoting iPatsa:
Quote:
Add principal units only, disclude any secondary units. If you can't figure out which is what, ...

Facts:
• I think most of us agree  - even T!M lists some important units locally - that there are some sort of Units/Crews/Whatever, which would qualify for listing, if we could identify them.
• Because local entries are lost entries for the community, these are worthless in my eyes.

Trial: An educated guess 
Can we agree on: An important part of the crew is one, which is responsible for a relevant part of the main movie.

This excludes any form of special crews (stunts, aerial, driving, diving, special effects, etc.), any form correctional or additional works (second unit, reshoot, on location crew for a studio based production, etc.)

Let me know, if we agree up to this point.

What remains? Any form of location crew, which is important to the whole movie. The crews which do an important part of the movie on another geolocation than the main crew. From my experience there are two cases which should be covered here:
a) films which don't have a complete main crew at all, but different more or less complete crews at different locations of the world (example: The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus)
b) films which have a main crew, but which use for one or more significant parts location crews, which are completely in charge of their work (examples would be most James Bond Movies).

If I did not miss something big, it comes down to identify, if a location crew is artistically in charge.

It is clear, that we won't ever be able to be sure who was in charge for a specific part of a movie or series, but for our purpose it should be sufficient, when we can easily make a decision which covers most of the cases (I'd be OK with an definition, which clears 75% of the cases; and I'd be happy with anything above 90%).

Proposal for a definition: A unit is artistically in charge of their local work, if at least one of the following main roles are done locally (means there are different persons listed for these roles in different locations):
Director (excluding second unit directors, assistant directors, etc, but inluding a "London director" for a London crew)
Director of photography (excluding cinematographers)
Editor
Casting (excluding casting for extras)
Costume design (excluding wardrobe guys)
Production design

Could this be a way to get on?
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributormreeder50
I was out of bullets
Registered: March 29, 2007
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United States Posts: 1,912
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I personally agree with this, but what about the other roles that are listed in the rules Crew list?
Marty - Registered July 10, 2004, User since 2002.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Registered: May 19, 2007
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I'd assume the complete Unit/Crew/Anything to be valid.

Narrowing down to the key members is only meant to decide, if a unit/crew/... is important and therefore valid.

I also added the casting director, which we don't even track now. But if there is a local casting director, then there is a local cast, ...
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
User since 6 Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Netherlands Posts: 6,799
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Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
films which have a main crew, but which use for one or more significant parts location crews, which are completely in charge of their work (examples would be most James Bond Movies).

Like where Vic Armstrong directs stunt or action units? He's often credited on-screen as "Second Unit Director" or "Action Unit Director" - that wouldn't really work, right? Many James Bond films form an excellent example of where a unit credited on-screen as a "second unit" is, in fact, a pretty huge unit, responsible for fairly large chunks of film (independently delivering entire sequences running over ten, twelve minutes), and I could understand a plea to somehow reflect his input in a DVD Profiler profile. But since his work is mostly labeled as "2nd" or "second" unit, it's consistently being ignored - even by the users who are in favour of location crew. And that's exactly where you're losing me: in such a case, I don't understand wanting to track a bit of location crew, whose impact on the end result is significantly smaller, while ignoring the much larger contribution of the second (action) unit.

Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
Proposal for a definition: A unit is artistically in charge of their local work, if at least one of the following main roles are done locally (means there are different persons listed for these roles in different locations):
Director (excluding second unit directors, assistant directors, etc, but inluding a "London director" for a London crew)
Director of photography (excluding cinematographers) [...]

But many of the credits for 2nd/second units meet those demands, by including a unit director and/or a unit director of photography. Do you feel that those 2nd units should qualify for tracking in DVD Profiler? If so, that brings us closer to tracking *all* units, no matter how big or small. If not: how can we ignore one set of unit crew meeting the demands, yet declare that the next (smaller!) unit *does* qualify? The fact is that units aren't consistently labeled in film credits... What one film may call "London Unit", might very well be called "2nd Unit" in another film - while their jobs and the impact on the final film are exactly the same. After reviewing thousands of film credits, I really don't see how we can properly define this...

This is not so much a plea for including second unit crew - I'm just saying that I wouldn't understand ignoring huge second units while wanting to track much smaller splinter units. I can't help noticing that every argument in favour of tracking certain bits of location crew, could also be used in favour of tracking second unit crew. Or reshoots/"additional photography" crew. Or whatever. The principle is always the same, meaning that it's either all unit crew out, or all unit crew in. There's just no surefire way to semantically determe which ones are "important" enough to track and which aren't.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I seem to remember a long time ago reading that the crew credits chosen for inclusion were those that could be nominated for an Academy Award. I don't know if that was true then, or if it is true now. And I have no real opinion on whether it makes sense or not.

However, if those are the criteria, then clearly second unit crew cannot be included. And I think it would rule out location crew as well.

Just some food for thought.
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Registered: May 19, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Like where Vic Armstrong directs stunt or action units? He's often credited on-screen as "Second Unit Director" or "Action Unit Director" - that wouldn't really work, right?

That's why I excluded any form of secondary unit/crew/anything up front. If a credit reads 2nd unit, then it is a helping hand and not an important crew/unit/anything, because the producer decided to list them as secondary.
Quote:
Many James Bond films form an excellent example of where a unit credited on-screen as a "second unit" is, in fact, a pretty huge unit, responsible for fairly large chunks of film (independently delivering entire sequences running over ten, twelve minutes), and I could understand a plea to somehow reflect his input in a DVD Profiler profile. But since his work is mostly labeled as "2nd" or "second" unit, it's consistently being ignored - even by the users who are in favour of location crew.

If we are not willing to draw a line, what is important and what isn't, then we will either loose important information or blow up the credits over the limits of being managable.
Quote:
But many of the credits for 2nd/second units meet those demands, by including a unit director and/or a unit director of photography. Do you feel that those 2nd units should qualify for tracking in DVD Profiler?

No I won't suggest anything like that. I don't want to list secondary nor technical crews! Never!

And for the records: No, only a very little amount of secondary/technical crews would qualify for these criteria (I know, that the production designer is a little bit risky, but the others are very seldom credited for a minor crew/unit; they are callled 2nd unit directer or stunt coordinator, or whatever; they are very seldom listed without a minoring pre- or postfix).
Quote:
How can we ignore one set of unit crew meeting the demands, yet declare that the next (smaller!) unit *does* qualify? The fact is that units aren't consistently labeled in film credits... What one film may call "London Unit", might very well be called "2nd Unit" in another film - while their jobs and the impact on the final film are exactly the same.

I'm totally aware, that we will never reach 100% of accuracy. But with a little research and will, it should be rather simple to reach 75% and not a really hard job to reach 90%. That's my goal.
Quote:
After reviewing thousands of film credits, I really don't see how we can properly define this...

Help us: how do you decide to list a crew/unit/anything locally? What is your critera?
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Registered: May 19, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
I seem to remember a long time ago reading that the crew credits chosen for inclusion were those that could be nominated for an Academy Award. I don't know if that was true then, or if it is true now. And I have no real opinion on whether it makes sense or not.

However, if those are the criteria, then clearly second unit crew cannot be included. And I think it would rule out location crew as well.

This definition was made decades ago and was broken on a very wide range. Nearly all art and sound credit do not qualify for the Academy... and we are still adding such fields to our valid credit list...

But to be honest, I also remembered this "oscar list" when thinking about the unit problem. And I discarded the approach, since there are so much technical oscars today, which don't grant any "being artically in charge". And on the other hand, the casting dept. does not qualify for an oscar, but is one of the strongest hint for the importance and the independance of a location unit.

And for the records: The example I liked the most Dr. Parnassus would get very strange with this criteria: Although the end credits list two equal Location crews for London and Vancouver, all major tasks for the London crew are done by the main crew - ending up in the London crew being invalid and the Vancouver crew being valid... here is room for improvement.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
User since 6 Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
Help us: how do you decide to list a crew/unit/anything locally? What is your critera?

That's exactly what the problem is: that really can't be put into words... "I know it when I see it" would be the best description, but that's no way to build a shared database - which is why I keep such stuff local. There just doesn't seem to be a simple set of criteria that ensures that we consistently track the "right" ones and leave out the others. "Do not enter unit crew" works, and "Include all unit crew" also works, but anything in between seems like a really bad idea.
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