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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2  Previous   Next
Film "Short Subjects"
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscooterberwyn
Registered: May 31, 2007
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The Contribution Rules state: "Alternate versions are not used for contributing profiles for shorts or episode-level profiles for TV series."  Does that apply only to TV series or to theatrical shorts also?  Example:  I have a 3-DVD set, and each DVD contains 8 theatrical short films, none of which runs over 21 minutes.  Do I enter them as individual films using alternate disc IDs for each or list all 8 short films as individual "Episodes" on a single disc ID?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Personally I think it's clear.

Per the rules.
""Alternate versions are not used for contributing profiles for shorts or episode-level profiles for TV series."

I think that short films qualify as "shorts".

So "list all 8 short films as individual "Episodes" on a single disc ID" is what I would do.

Pretty much no different than how the Three Stooges short films are entered.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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CubbyUps is correct.  'Shorts' refers to theatrical shorts.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
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Yes, I'd also list them as episodes. And since we qualify them as episodes, the disc-level profiles are optional, and therefore the cast/crew for *all* shorts/episodes also should be listed in the parent profile.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Yes, I'd also list them as episodes. And since we qualify them as episodes, the disc-level profiles are optional, and therefore the cast/crew for *all* shorts/episodes also should be listed in the parent profile.

I am going to disagree on this.  These are theatrical shorts, not TV episodes.  Since they are not TV episodes, the TV Series rules do not apply and the standard rules should be used.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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Since they are not TV episodes, the TV Series rules do not apply and the standard rules should be used.

So first you want to treat them as episodes, and at the same time, you don't want to treat them as episodes? Let's just be consistent. And then you say you want to apply "the standard rules" - so what do you think those are, then? Wait, I'll show you:

- The standard rules for "any release that includes more than one film" are here, and they demand individual profiles for each film. But you just said that you didn't want that, and as CubbyUps pointed out, the contribution rules actually speak out against that.

- The standard rules for "Anthologies of Episodes that do not form a complete series or season", the description that seems to fit scooterberwyn's example best, are here, and they state that disc-level profiles are not required, and that "In either case, the cast and crew are to be entered into the parent profile using appropriate episode dividers."

So if you want to use the standard rules, these are the two standard rules to choose from. The third standard rule you're apparently thinking of, really doesn't exist. If you think it does, please point out where it is.

No, either we consider these individual films, or we consider this a collection of episodes, and for either scenario, there is indeed a standard rule on how to deal with that. There's is no third standard rule for a collection of shorts, no special exception. It's either one or the other.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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I own several collection of shorts, and none of them profile each short separately. So if we are going by precedent, listing them as episodes seem to be the way to go.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
So first you want to treat them as episodes, and at the same time, you don't want to treat them as episodes? Let's just be consistent.

I don't want to treat them as episodes, I want to treat them as shorts.
Quote:
And then you say you want to apply "the standard rules" - so what do you think those are, then? Wait, I'll show you:

Actually, let me show you.  The rules mention shorts in exactly two sections:

First, in the Overview section: If the Main Feature of the disc is a collection of some kind (e.g. shorts, TV episodes, multiple films, etc.) rather than one single feature, a simple list of the collection contents may be added to the standard overview. Example:
1. Title
2. Title
3. Title

And second, in the Alternate Versions section: Alternate versions are not used for contributing profiles for shorts or episode-level profiles for TV series.

Quote:
So if you want to use the standard rules, these are the two standard rules to choose from. The third standard rule you're apparently thinking of, really doesn't exist. If you think it does, please point out where it is.

See above.
Quote:
No, either we consider these individual films, or we consider this a collection of episodes, and for either scenario, there is indeed a standard rule on how to deal with that. There's is no third standard rule for a collection of shorts, no special exception. It's either one or the other.

Sorry, but it isn't one or the other as there is a third, and correct, option available...consider it a collection of shorts.  The rules make a distinction between 'shorts' and 'episodes', not once, but twice.  Since they do, we should as well.

Based on those two rules, again, the only rules that mention shorts, we create a single profile for the disc containing the collection of shorts and list each title in the overview.

Now, if you want to treat them as TV episodes, feel free but let's not pretend it's what the rules tell us to do, because it isn't.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
The rules make a distinction between 'shorts' and 'episodes', not once, but twice.

I only see two mentions of shorts in the rules, and in both cases they tell us to treat them the same as episodes. So can you please elaborate on how they should be treated differently?
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
The rules make a distinction between 'shorts' and 'episodes', not once, but twice.

I only see two mentions of shorts in the rules, and in both cases they tell us to treat them the same as episodes. So can you please elaborate on how they should be treated differently?

I posted both rules that mention shorts and I don't see anything in those rules saying to treat them the same as episodes.  They are listed with episodes, but that's not the same thing.  I have also read the TV Series rules and I can't find a single place where it says that they also apply to shorts.

That being said, I have already explained how they should be treated differently...it was the second to last sentence in my previous post.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
Registered: October 22, 2015
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I agree that multiple short films should not be considered as "Episodes", rather, they are distinct films.

I also agree that multiple short theatrical films on a single disc are a box set and we have to create profiles for each film. 

But hang on, we cannot create alternate Disc IDs for short films.

So, the question is, how do we adhere to both rules at the same time?

As everyone has suggested, we create a single Disc ID profile, but the point being discussed is on the use of episode dividers with references to the TV set rule, which MadMartian has pointed out, is not applicable.

On the other hand, the standard rule for DIVIDERS states you can use Episode dividers for TV show episodes, distinct films, or other logical episodic distinction.

So my recommendation is to do what CubbyUps said, plus list the short film titles in the overview.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAndyEN
Registered: May 25, 2007
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It's also worth noting that sometimes theatrical shorts are part of episodes (Looney Tunes cartoons for example). Since both shorts and episodes are not supposed to be alternate IDs by themselves, best to include them in the core profile or at least on the disc they're on I think. The grey area as always is how long is a short vs a feature, particularly since, say, feature length westerns used to run under an hour in many cases.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJulian K
Registered: March 15, 2007
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May I ask some advice?

I have a (single) disc that contains a feature, and (as part of the Special Features), a short (15m) film (from the same director).

Currently the cast of the short film are not included in the profile at all, and I would like to add them to the database.

Do I add the short film's cast to the main feature's cast using a divider? If not, what should I do?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
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Quoting Julian K:
Quote:
Do I add the short film's cast to the main feature's cast using a divider?

No.

Quote:
If not, what should I do?

If you want, you can create a "Bonus Feature Film" child profile as outlined in the contribution rules here (bottom of the page). At the very least, that gives you a method to handle this locally, but these child profiles can also be submitted into the database. The glitch is that there's some debate over when these "Bonus Feature Film" child profiles qualify for contribution - with its running time being seen as a serious factor. Many seem to feel that it needs to exceed a certain running time before qualifying, but there is no agreement over where the cut-off point lies, exactly. So whether 15 minutes is enough, is anyone's guess at the moment. Chances are that if you simply submit it, it'll be accepted into the database.

I've written another post about this recently, with a couple of examples, here.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorrdodolak
Registered: March 18, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
If you want, you can create a "Bonus Feature Film" child profile as outlined in the contribution rules here (bottom of the page). At the very least, that gives you a method to handle this locally, but these child profiles can also be submitted into the database. The glitch is that there's some debate over when these "Bonus Feature Film" child profiles qualify for contribution - with its running time being seen as a serious factor. Many seem to feel that it needs to exceed a certain running time before qualifying, but there is no agreement over where the cut-off point lies, exactly. So whether 15 minutes is enough, is anyone's guess at the moment. Chances are that if you simply submit it, it'll be accepted into the database.

I've written another post about this recently, with a couple of examples, here.


Except the rules for Alternate Version method state not to in shorts and there is simply no way to submit them without using the alternate version method.

Quote:
Alternate versions are not used for contributing profiles for shorts or episode-level profiles for TV series.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting rdodolak:
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Except the rules for Alternate Version method state not to in shorts and there is simply no way to submit them without using the alternate version method.

Yes, that's exactly what I tried to explain. A "Bonus Feature Film" child profile is the only option, but there's no agreement on where the cut-off point between "Short" and "Bonus Feature Films" lies, exactly. It's lovely to be able to say that shorts aren't allowed, but what we need to establish is at exactly which point something stops being a "Short", and crosses the line to become something that *does* qualify. The rules don't give any guidance on how to make that call, and the userbase doesn't seem to agree, either. And the screeners seem to accept pretty much any "Bonus Feature Film" child profile that is submitted, so that doesn't give us an indication either.

Again, have a look at a previous topic on this subject, in which I gave a couple of examples that I encountered myself, here.
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