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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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I'm out as well |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
But there is many legitimate reasons to be able to change a pre-release.
- The studio releasing more info on the title before it's release
- Cover-art coming out later then the official announcement
- Something added in the initial contribution was just wrong (as in a mistake was made)... there has been more then once I did a pre-release profile and I had to make a second contribution to it because I missed something... or misread the announcement. I understand what you're saying, but my position is "who cares?" The data will be corrected...once we actually have the disc and can make informed entries. The bottom line is that everything can change right up until we actually see the disc. The important thing is that we can grab a profile and store it for building wishlists, etc. The accuracy of the data is crap by definition since it's pre-release. I recognize that this concept can make a type A person's brain explode, but it does address the issue. Folks who just can't stand it always have the option of editing their local pre-release version if they just can't wait until we have verifiable data. | | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Well, for instance, if someone submitted a pre-release boxset profile and included audio, video, cast or crew data, I would vote no.
If someone submitted a pre-release and use improper capitalization in the title, I would vote no.
If someone submitted a pre-release and selected TV instead of Film for the rating system, I would vote no.
Shall I go on. The above examples apply if they are not pre-releases but I do not won them.
There are lots of fields that can legitimately be voted on without owning the disc itself.
Audio and sub-title tracks would not be among them.
There's a simple answer to this...don't allow changes to pre-release profiles. All of your examples imply changes made to an existing pre-release profile. I'm not aware of any way to vote on a newly created profile. I mean if folks are updating pre-release profiles that much, we have a problem right out of the gate. Let's face it, these things are really just placeholders until we actually can get our hands on the disc. If we're using them in any other fashion short of the projected release date, then we're likely corrupting the database. For that matter, limit the use of certain fields when creating new pre-release profiles.
Just my thoughts. I may have muddied the water by speaking to pre-releases. As I said in my post, these could also be "already" released DVDs. Those fields do not require a person to own the disc in order to vote properly. There are certainly others, which do. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 17,329 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
But there is many legitimate reasons to be able to change a pre-release.
- The studio releasing more info on the title before it's release
- Cover-art coming out later then the official announcement
- Something added in the initial contribution was just wrong (as in a mistake was made)... there has been more then once I did a pre-release profile and I had to make a second contribution to it because I missed something... or misread the announcement.
I understand what you're saying, but my position is "who cares?"
The data will be corrected...once we actually have the disc and can make informed entries. The bottom line is that everything can change right up until we actually see the disc. The important thing is that we can grab a profile and store it for building wishlists, etc. The accuracy of the data is crap by definition since it's pre-release.
I recognize that this concept can make a type A person's brain explode, but it does address the issue. Folks who just can't stand it always have the option of editing their local pre-release version if they just can't wait until we have verifiable data. Obviously some of us do care (I for one... especially when it is I that made a mistake)... and I don't think the ability should be taking away from us just because of a small handful of people who may be abusing the system. If anything something should be done to reprimand the few people. Not mess up what we already have to such a bad extreme. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
I may have muddied the water by speaking to pre-releases. As I said in my post, these could also be "already" released DVDs. Those fields do not require a person to own the disc in order to vote properly. There are certainly others, which do. I agree with you here. There are plenty of items that can be legitimately voted on without owning the disc. The issue is the fact that this particular loophole is being exploited by some users and allowing them to think they are the database police. Regardless of whether they actually can influence contribution acceptance or not is beside the point. The fact remains that the ability to interject your bile wherever and whenever you choose, regardless of ownership status, is a flaw in the system. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
Obviously some of us do care (I for one... especially when it is I that made a mistake)... and I don't think the ability should be taking away from us just because of a small handful of people who may be abusing the system. If anything something should be done to reprimand the few people. Not mess up what we already have to such a bad extreme. In this we agree completely. I've been using this software for a number of years now and I know you've been around even longer. In all those years, have you ever even heard a hint of a rumor that such an action has been taken? Neither have I. Therefore I'm forced to conclude that reprimands are off the table and we must come up with more draconian measures. | | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,329 |
| | Posted: | | | | That is where we are different. In my mind It is not up to us to decide on any measures... it is totally up to Invelos and Invelos alone... it is their program... their business... their choice if they feel it is a big enough problem to deal with it or not. The way I see it the only choice I have is if I want to continue to support the software with my contributions and such.
If by chance it is not a big deal to Invelos I will not try to push my wants/beliefs on them in any way or form. I will just decide on my continued use if it becomes to big of a problem for me. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well if one user here is dragging evreyone away, would be kind of sad if Ken doesn't do something against this.
If it is one user leaving or all the good contributors leaving, my choice would be obvious.
just a thought
Donnie | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| | Registered: March 10, 2007 | | Posts: 4,282 |
| | Posted: | | | | The votes on this profile (both Yes and No) cannot be categorized as abuses. Both sides stated their case clearly in the forums and I think we can all agree that both sides had some merit. An incorrect vote, in and of itself, is not an abuse of the voting system. We do not discuss individual moderator actions against users, but I can say that there have been many, many users warned at one time or another, many users temporarily banned from the forums, temporarily banned from voting/contributing or both. And a few have been permanently banned from contributing. It is not possible to ban someone from posting to a forum that allows free accounts to post. We reserve the right to make this change in the future, but for now I'd rather leave them open. So, instead we have temporary forum bans. These occur regularly. As stated, it is our policy to not give individual anouncements when repremands/bans occur. Do you really expect the banned user to come back after the temp ban and say "Hey I got in trouble and got a temp post restriction"? So, you will likely never know about a temp ban unless it occurs to you. There are many reasons to allow voting on wish list items. If we did decide that the cons outwieghed the pros, implementing a restriction of voting/contributing only on profiles you own would require us to validate ownership, for instance by requiring insertion of the original disc. That would be a significant burden on the contribution and voting community, so we have no intention of implementing that change at this time. To restate another position, we do not take action against users for impoliteness in PMs. The block system works quite well for those that choose to use it. The voting system does track individual accuracy, but there is a cap on vote value. The net result is that there is a large number of voters with equal calculated vote value. If you vote regularly, and generally match the evaluator decision, you're in that group. We have another category of voters who vote "Yes" on literally every contribution. I honestly don't know why, but to each their own.  Needless to say, their calculated vote value falls to nil and stays there as long as they continue. This is not to be confused with a user who only votes "Yes", and casts no vote at all if they're not sure. | | | | Invelos Software, Inc. Representative |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ken you have to admit that many long time valuable users and contributors left here the last weeks.
I think I do not have to point out why.
I am wondring why you are allowing this to happen ?
cheers
Donnie | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,329 |
| | Posted: | | | | Thanks for chiming in Ken | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 10, 2007 | | Posts: 4,282 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting DarklyNoon: Quote:
Ken you have to admit that many long time valuable users and contributors left here the last weeks.
I think I do not have to point out why.
I am wondring why you are allowing this to happen ?
cheers
Donnie We're not sitting back on our laurels. The forum atmosphere has improved significantly in the last several weeks and we intend to be vigilant in keeping the forums a nice place to visit. Some users have left due to our stance on a) wish list voting, b) lack of pm policing, or c) specific contribution decisions. I've addressed a and b above. As to c, look, there's really nothing we can do about it. When a policy decision comes up, we usually have three options: side with group #1, side with group #2, or make no stance and allow the votes to determine the outcome. Thankfully not every user decides to stop contributing when we don't side with them. If so, we would lose 30-50% of our contributors with every decision! | | | | Invelos Software, Inc. Representative |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree that the atmosphere here has become slightly better in the last weeks, what bothers me is that it is a tiny , tiny group who is not able to keep this here civil and without personal attacks. I am wondring if they do this too within their families. I really hope that this tiny group will step a bit back and control themselves. I still have hope cheers Donnie | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 820 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ken Cole: Quote:
Quoting DarklyNoon:
Quote:
Ken you have to admit that many long time valuable users and contributors left here the last weeks.
I think I do not have to point out why.
I am wondring why you are allowing this to happen ?
cheers
Donnie
We're not sitting back on our laurels. The forum atmosphere has improved significantly in the last several weeks and we intend to be vigilant in keeping the forums a nice place to visit.
Some users have left due to our stance on a) wish list voting, b) lack of pm policing, or c) specific contribution decisions. I've addressed a and b above.
As to c, look, there's really nothing we can do about it. When a policy decision comes up, we usually have three options: side with group #1, side with group #2, or make no stance and allow the votes to determine the outcome. Thankfully not every user decides to stop contributing when we don't side with them. If so, we would lose 30-50% of our contributors with every decision! Ken, I agree with your view on just about everything that you have said in this post. The one area where I think that you could effect some further improvements is in making some of the forum moderation actions public. The reputation system was a reasonable start but only showing positive reputation scores allows bad behaviour to go unpunished publicly. I would like Invelos to publicy record the status of users in the user profile displayed in the forum. For example, Suspended, Permanently Banned. Making moderator action public will in my view generate greater confidence in the system. | | | | Last edited: by Telecine |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Telecine: Quote:
Ken,
I agree with you view on just about everything that you have said in this post. The one area where I think that you could effect some further improvements is in making some of the forum moderation actions public. The reputation system was a reasonable start but only showing positive reputation scores allows bad behaviour to go unpunished publicly.
I would like Invelos to publicy record the status of users in the user profile displayed in the forum. For example, Suspended, Permanently Banned. Making moderator action public will in my view generate greater confidence in the system. I've thought quite a bit about this & although I used to think like you, I've changed my mind a bit. Compare it to being at work. If you receive a disciplinary for whatever reason, that stays between you and your manager (and other necessary people like Personnel/Human Resources). It certainly isn't made public to the average member of staff & rightly so. You wouldn't want other people to know about it there & I think the same should apply here. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,329 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have to agree with Forget on that. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 820 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Forget_the_Rest: Quote:
Quoting Telecine:
Quote:
Ken,
I agree with you view on just about everything that you have said in this post. The one area where I think that you could effect some further improvements is in making some of the forum moderation actions public. The reputation system was a reasonable start but only showing positive reputation scores allows bad behaviour to go unpunished publicly.
I would like Invelos to publicy record the status of users in the user profile displayed in the forum. For example, Suspended, Permanently Banned. Making moderator action public will in my view generate greater confidence in the system.
I've thought quite a bit about this & although I used to think like you, I've changed my mind a bit. Compare it to being at work. If you receive a disciplinary for whatever reason, that stays between you and your manager (and other necessary people like Personnel/Human Resources). It certainly isn't made public to the average member of staff & rightly so. You wouldn't want other people to know about it there & I think the same should apply here. This isn't the workplace and I don't believe that people can have a reasonable expectation of privacy when they are posting in a public forum. The behaviour is on display for all to see, the consequences of that behaviour are not. A lot of bad behaviour on public forums is ego-driven. Publicly punishing bad behaviour is one way to keep the egos in check. | | | | Last edited: by Telecine |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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