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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1  Previous   Next
ADR voice
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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There's a contribution that adds a whole group of ADR voices for The Chronicles of Riddick. While I understand the thought, I'm not sure I agree that they belong in Cast.

I must admit that I have never seen such credits before, but in my mind they are comparable to stunt performers; performers not identifiable with a certain role. IMDb lists them as crew, together with the rest of the ADR crew.

So, what do you think - cast or not cast?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
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I brought this up 10 years ago with the majority of the community voting that this data should not be included: http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=568614.

But, Ken weighed in and stated this data should be included: http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=438798&PageNum=9.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Long topic that, but unless I missed something, ADR was not specifically mentioned. So are we to take that "ADR Group" when listed together with the rest of the ADR credits is the same as "Additional Voices"? Sounds rather similar, but I'm no expert.

Too bad Ken can't (or won't) chip in here.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNosferatu
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I can see an argument for including ADR cast because we don't argue against including visual effects artists and sound re-recording mixers in the crew section

However, I would much rather the cast section included those who are seen in live-action films or provide the main voices for animated films. (Additional Voices is always a separate category with its own group divider.) Adding ADR makes things much more messy and overcrowded IMO.

Carrying on with the crew analogy, we don't include Foley artists, arguably the sound department equivalent of those who provide ADR voices.
 Last edited: by Nosferatu
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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In an old common name-finding thread from awilbohk for Wendy Hoffman(n), that is currently back on this sub-forum's front page, my stance on this was quoted. I'll quote it again:

Quote:
About whether they're crew or cast: I consider them cast, and as you can see in the CLT, I'm certainly not the only one: they're regularly entered into the database by many, many users, throughout all regions and localities. Also: I spoke to a few of these people, and they consider themselves actors. Voice actors, perhaps, but actors nonetheless. Last but not least, just looking at the few examples above, I just can't ignore credits like "ADR Cast" or "Voice Actors" - if the credits call them cast or actors, then who am I to claim they're not? And if I'm entering Ms. Hoffmann's credits when they're "ADR Cast", "Voice Actors" and "Additional Voices", then why would I suddenly ignore her when the credit is a bit less specific, but her job on the film was exactly the same? Either I track these voice actors, or we don't, but if we're going to track *some* of the labels they're credited with, I'm tracking *every* label they're credited with.

That's from many years ago, but it's still how I look this. If a group of people is credited as "ADR Cast", "Additional Voices" or "Voice Actors", there's no question that we enter them - words like "Cast" and "Actors" are pretty hard to ignore. But if the exact same people, doing the exact same job, are credited as "ADR Group" or "ADR Voices", they should suddenly be ignored? My quest for consistency simply doesn't allow me to do that. Either we track them, or we don't - but not half of the time.

Bottom line: if a group of "ADR Cast" is valid, then I don't see why a group of "ADR Voices" would not be valid as well.

Then there's, as Kathy pointed out, Ken's comment: "I don't see a compelling reason to exclude non-specific voice credits", which has been interpreted by lots of users as confirmation that these groups should all be entered - but as has happened so often in DVD Profiler world, that comment wasn't specific enough to rule out any ambiguity. To me, however, there's one more thing that's cemented my view, and that's the updated contribution rule about local dubbers - these can be entered nowadays. So in, say, a German profile, I now get a list of local voice artists who dubbed the original voices in German. This is something that I personally have no use for, and I remove them from my local database, but if those people, who generally were *not* part of the original film production, and did *not* do their work under the supervision of the film's director, are considered valid entries, then I can't see why we would then ignore voice actors that actually *were* part of the original film production.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Well, I guess I'll have to accept it as cast. Here is an observations, though:

ADR is not just additional voices. ADR is lip syncing dialog, most often used for scenes shot on location where the production sound isn't good enough. In most cases the onscreen actors will do their own ADR, unless they are unavailable for some reason.

Here we have 35 (!) people in a group called just "ADR Group". It doesn't actually say "voice", that's an assumption on the part of the contributor. A fairly reasonable assumption, given that there are other specific ADR crew roles listed before the group, but still an assumption.

The question in my mind is - why would they need 35 additional voice artists doing lip syncing?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGamemaster
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With such large groups there are probably scenes with large crowds, like a full restaurant or a big battle etc.

I totally agree with T!M and with Ken's statement I think it's pretty clear there's no reason for not adding them or removing them.
 Last edited: by Gamemaster
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quoting Gamemaster:
Quote:
With such large groups there are probably scenes with large crowds, like a full restaurant or a big battle etc.

They would hardly need to lipsync large crowds, would they?

Quote:
I totally agree with T!M and with Ken's statement I think it's pretty clear there's a reason for not adding them or removing them.

A reason for not adding them? I don't think T!M or Ken suggested that. 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGamemaster
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
They would hardly need to lipsync large crowds, would they?

Lip sync is indeed not necessary, but they do provide the voices for that crowd and in my opinion that meets the requirement for the non-specific voice credits as stated by Ken.

Quote:
I totally agree with T!M and with Ken's statement I think it's pretty clear there's a reason for not adding them or removing them.
A reason for not adding them? I don't think T!M or Ken suggested that. 

Sorry, no reason of course.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quoting Gamemaster:
Quote:
Lip sync is indeed not necessary, but they do provide the voices for that crowd and in my opinion that meets the requirement for the non-specific voice credits as stated by Ken.

Right, but why would they be credites as ADR if they're not lip syncing?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKluge
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If you include ADR group or loop group (credited in sound section of the credits) in cast, then you should include the foley people too, they do the same job.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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There are quite a few people who, on principle, feel that ADR does not belong in the cast section, which I understand, but again, if they're credited as a group of "ADR Cast" is, then it's pretty hard to argue with the word "Cast" in there, right? If the filmmakers are explicitly calling them "Cast", then who are we to argue? And subsequently, if I'm entering these people when they're called "ADR Cast", then why wouldn't I enter them when they're credited as "ADR Voices"? What's the difference? Talk to one of these people, and I guarantee you they'll tell you that there *is* no difference, that they're doing the same job. Again, it's not that I've always aspired to enter ADR groups into my database - it's just that after the database has been flooded with these people credited as "ADR Cast" and "Voice Actors", there's no reason anymore to suddenly draw the line at "ADR Voices". As I said: either we don't track any of them, but words like "Cast" and "Actors" make that impossible, or we track all of them.

If we're looking at a very busy voice actress like Wendy Hoffman(n), common name-finding thread here, then she's credited in my database under many different job titles, including:

Additional Voices
ADR Cast
ADR Voices
ADR Voice Group
Loop Group
Voice Actors
Voice Cast

Again, it's pretty hard to argue with roles as "Voice Actors", "ADR Cast" and "Voice Cast" - still, anyone can say "I personally don't feel they're cast", but if the credits explicitly call them "Cast" or "Actors", then they *will* make (and have made) their way into the cast lists. There's just no arguing with words like "Cast" or "Actors". And it's precisely that which has gotten me to the point of including the other job labels as well - if I'm going to track Wendy Hoffman(n)'s job in my database, then I'm tracking all of her credits, not just half or two thirds of them. So if I'm entering her when she's credited as "ADR Cast", and with the word "Cast" in that credit that's pretty much unavoidable, then I'm going to enter her if she's credited as "ADR Voices" as well. Simply because there's no difference between them: she's providing the same job in both cases.

So to everyone who feels, on principle, that "ADR Voices" aren't part of the cast, how would you handle "ADR Cast"? You still feel that's not cast? Even though the credit explicitly says so?

Once again: I'm not doing this because I desperately want to track ADR - absolutely not. I'm doing this because I'm looking at the bigger picture, which is that it's impossible to stop "ADR Cast" and "Voice Actors" credits from entering the database. And if I'm tracking a group of people credited as "ADR Cast", then I'm going to track the same group of people, doing the same job, when they're credit is "ADR Voices" as well. Either I track all of them, or none of them. Words like "Cast" and "Actors" have made the "none of them" option impossible, leaving "all of them" as the only remaining viable option to me.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Quoting myself:
Quote:
Here we have 35 (!) people in a group called just "ADR Group". It doesn't actually say "voice", that's an assumption on the part of the contributor.

And it doesn't say "cast" either.
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 Last edited: by GSyren
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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While I understand T!Ms logic, by the same logic, should we not include stand-ins if they are listed. They are actors. And stunt people act as well, so why are they not included?

The argument that we should include people based on what they do rather than how they are credited seems to be a slippery slope.
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Gunnar
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