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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 ...9  Previous   Next
The continued drama we call "parsing": Ellen Albertini Dow
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
User since 6 Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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I currently have a "no"-vote on one of my pending contributions because I've parsed Ellen Albertini Dow as E/A/D rather than E//A D, with the voter saying that it should be E//A D because it's a double surname. I don't doubt that for a moment, of course - I would personally LOVE to have a rule that tells us to always put anything but a person's first/given name in the last name field. That would make things a lot easier. But unfortunately, there's no such rule - hence my E/A/D parsing.

For the record: according to the CLT, she's never ever credited as anything but Ellen Albertini Dow: there are no credits with a hyphen, and no credits for either "Ellen Albertini" nor for "Ellen Dow".

Previously, I've gotten "no"-votes for using E//A D, and now that I've changed it, I'm getting "no"-votes for using E/A/D. Wonderful. What should it be?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Registered: May 19, 2007
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I understand your dilemma.
My solution for this has been quite easy: I'm doing parsing strictly local only, if a profile update would change the existing parsing of a Cast/Crew member I don't contribute anymore.
This saves a lot of time and nerves.

EDIT:
I seriously doubt that in this specific case the forum will come to a conclusion.
It seems that there are no official sources supporting either the one variant or the other, so both are correct or incorrect depending on your POV.
While my (German) common sense tells me to parse it E//AD, internationally I'd go for the (usually) failsafe parsing E/A/D.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
I understand your dilemma.
My solution for this has been quite easy: I'm doing parsing strictly local only, if a profile update would change the existing parsing of a Cast/Crew member I don't contribute anymore.
This saves a lot of time and nerves.

I understand, and just giving up would indeed solve my problem, I get that. 

But the thing is that I've done a full audit of that particular profile: a major and much-needed cast and crew overhaul, and a few other corrections as well. Frankly, it would be fairly ridiculous if all that work was rejected simply because of the parsing of one single name - an issue on which there doesn't even seem to be a clear "right" or "wrong". Of course I can just give up, I understand that, but this still is a user-built database. Well, I've done the work, and I'm happy to share that with the community. But then this is the stumbling block that would cause me to give up? I find that a bit hard to stomach...

Maybe it's interesting to have a look at Invelos's take on this matter. Here's a previous similar thread, also by me, on a similar name: Elaine Corral Kendall. Same issue: I used E/C/K, someone voted "no" because he wanted E//C K. The beauty of that thread is that for once, Invelos chimed in, and made a ruling (on page #5). And what do you know? They said to go with E/C/K. If that applies there (even a hyphenated credit didn't swing it to E//C K), then why wouldn't it apply here as well?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKluge
Registered: August 4, 2007
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For what it's worth, Albertini is an italian family name, never used as first name.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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Source  "notre Cinéma" :


Source Wikipedia :
Albertini Dow was born Ellen Albertini ...
Albertini Dow worked as a director and choreographer ...
Albertini Dow also played J. Peterman's dying mother in ...

I do not see any dilemna for such a simple case.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
Registered Sept 5 2005
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if it is the only reason for the "no" vote, and there is "substantial" improvement for the contribution, I would let it stand.

If the "no" vote wants to provide you the proof to back his claim, then change, else leave it alone.

Charlie
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
For the record: according to the CLT, she's never ever credited as anything but Ellen Albertini Dow: there are no credits with a hyphen, and no credits for either "Ellen Albertini" nor for "Ellen Dow".

Are there mixed case/full case credits like "Ellen Albertini DOW" or "Ellen ALBERTINI DOW"? Or are there other indicators in the credits which separate given names from surnames (colour/font size)?

Those could solve the case as well.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting RHo:
Quote:
Are there mixed case/full case credits like "Ellen Albertini DOW" or "Ellen ALBERTINI DOW"? Or are there other indicators in the credits which separate given names from surnames (colour/font size)?

I don't know, but would it matter? Again, I would like to refer to the Elaine Corral Kendall example, where, despite the existence of a confirmed hyphenated Elaine Corral-Kendall credit - which we don't have here - Invelos still ruled that we parse it as E/C/K. If a confirmed hyphenated credit wasn't enough to swing the parsing there, then why would a mixed case/full case credit make a difference now?

Let me repeat that I'm not stating my personal preference here - I just looked at a previous ruling by Invelos on a similar case, and applied that ruling here again. That's all. The bottom line is that I'm happy go either way, as long as we do it all the same, and I can contribute to various profiles with her in it without getting no-votes. As it stands, I'm getting no-votes no matter which parsing I use, and the best advice yet seems to be to give up on contributing. Not a great system... 
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
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I am afraid as long as there is parsing to be done you (we all) will have this problem. I just find it very unfortunate that Ken is against a single name field. That is the only thing I know of that will make ALL parsing issues go away.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKluge
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Gerri said: "Because of the lack of clear evidence one way or the other".

I take the evidences displayed by surfeur51 as clear evidences that the family name is ALBERTINI DOW.

If you don't want to see NO votes, let the current parsing on line and take whatever you prefer in your local.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
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Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
I just find it very unfortunate that Ken is against a single name field. That is the only thing I know of that will make ALL parsing issues go away.


There is quite no parsing issue. In quite all cases, it is very easy to find the correct parsing, as in the very simple case of this thread. In my collection I have only doubt about half a dozen "more than two parts" names, the only real problems about names being Asian names and accented names.

A one field name would forbid sorting, and it is a very bad solution. Fortunately Ken wrote he is working on a two field name system, which seems fine for me.
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 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Source  "notre Cinéma" :


Source Wikipedia :
Albertini Dow was born Ellen Albertini ...
Albertini Dow worked as a director and choreographer ...
Albertini Dow also played J. Peterman's dying mother in ...

I do not see any dilemna for such a simple case.


Based on this, I would parse it E//A D
Hal
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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As I have said repeatedly on this issue. Just because a woman is born with a maidsen name does not automatically mean that when she marries that married name becomes a double barreled last name, many woman simply move the given name to the middle slot. Perhaps I am missing something but I do not see any documentation beyond knowledge of what her maiden name was, which means NOTHING. How does she parse it. From our point of view I still don't understand all the brouhaha about this, does it REALLY make ANY sort of difference to Profiler...I submit NO it does not. What additional info do we really get by going on and on about these things. The ONLY thing that is important to Profiler is that we deal with them consistently for each individual. If it's that big a deal then someone needs to start sending out postcards requesting informatioon from the person on how THEY want their name to be parsed. Short of something like a Smith-Jones type of entry does not indicate a doiuble barrelled last name and as I have said before if this is an old entry then even that could be questionable since people are free to deal with THEIR name as THEY CHOOSE, not how anyone else chooses. So simply follow the data and stop worrying about such minutiae whish have absolutely no impact on the program as long as the data is handled in a consistent way.Part of last name or middle name is of absolutely no consequence and provides other users with no useful information, if not documented. We aren't doing a phone book, where it might matter or a family tree. We are recording data simply about MOVIES.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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And BTW the meager documentation provided by Hal, sorry Hal, proves nothing beyond the last name she was born with. It does not support his references to Albertini Dow. Further she is an American actress so unlike some countries there is no Rule or even law that dictates preseuptiously how a woman MUST parse her last name. That is her choice, and I see no documentation that supports a double barrelled last name, it is a possibility but it is NOT a GIVEN.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
I just find it very unfortunate that Ken is against a single name field. That is the only thing I know of that will make ALL parsing issues go away.


There is quite no parsing issue. In quite all cases, it is very easy to find the correct parsing, as in the very simple case of this thread. In my collection I have only doubt about half a dozen "more than two parts" names, the only real problems about names being Asian names and accented names.

A one field name would forbid sorting, and it is a very bad solution. Fortunately Ken wrote he is working on a two field name system, which seems fine for me.


I know for a fact that at the very least in my country there is no rules on how to format names. Even if a woman marries but keeps her maiden name in addition to her married name... there is no saying whether that name is a double last name or if she changed her old last name to her middle name. Knowing this as a fact tells me that there is no true way to know for sure how it really is. So I still believe a single name field is the best option. But as you said you have no worries since Ken Don't want to go that way.

What you need to understand is while you may feel strong about your opinion on this matter don't mean everyone agrees with you. And you make it seem like you feel instead of letting people have their own opinion (like feeling it is worth the loss of that little bit [IMO] to have a single name field) It seems like you must have everyone not just understand your side (which I do) but agree with you as well. Well I am sorry... but that is just something I do not agree with.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
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Quoting Winston Smith:
Quote:
Just because a woman is born with a maidsen name does not automatically mean that when she marries that married name becomes a double barreled last name...


You just forget the documentation about Ellen ALBERTINI DOW.

Do you write John FITZGERALD KENNEDY ? or John HERSCHEL GLENN ?
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