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Additional MakeUp Artist allowed?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Edited for eliminating distracting side-problems.

As promised!

The question is quite simple.
The rules tell us that "MakeUp Artist" validates an entry.
Now, does the little prefix "Additional" change anything here?

Taking into consideration some of the arguments presented in this thread the answer can only be "Yes".

Still I'd like to know ...
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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By the way you stated the question, I would have to say no.

If it is included within the main credits, the base job is still photography by.  Photography by is excluded in the credits if a cinematographer is present.

Even with the addition of "Addition", still does not negate the base job, within the main credits.  Now if it said "Additional Cinematographer", there may be a debate, for that the job of cinematographer is allowed, it could be argued that additional (not assistant, intern, or associate) cinematographer is not explicitly disallowed by the rules, and therefor may be included.


Charlie
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Somehow I knew that this would be among the first responses.

Lets just assume for a second that the other relevant credit is "Director of Photography".
The rules only disallow "Photography By" if a Cinematographer is listed.
Please note that the rules distinguish between these two.

But for not getting into too much trouble in one go, I changed the topic to an easier question.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNexus the Sixth
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Strictly by the rules, nothing forbids it. But long standing practice has been to disclude additional crew. But if you ignore the context of any headers, they seem to be fair game for inclusion.
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 Last edited: by Nexus the Sixth
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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Not sure if I ever saw a credit of cinematographer when DOP was present, for I thought the DOP took that job.

As far as Additional Makeup Artist.  Strictly going by the rules, I would have to say it is allowed.  The word additional only appears 5 times in the rules, and none are related to crew.

In a way, I could see this in the same context of the argument supervising (insert job), before it was added to the rules.

is the additional makeup artist subservient to the Makeup artist?  Did one have anything to do with the other? 

Maybe another argument for contributable custom roles

Charlie
 Last edited: by CharlieM
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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I enter:

  • Robotic Special Effects, because it is still a special effects credit.

  • Prosthetic Make-up Effects, because it is still a make-up effects credit.

  • Crowd Make-up Artist, because it is still a make-up artist credit.


  • If you want to enter 'Addition Make-up Artists', I will not argue with you.
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
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    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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    Quoting iPatsa:
    Quote:
    Strictly by the rules, nothing forbids it. But long standing practice has been to disclude additional crew. But if you ignore the context of any headers, they seem to be fair game for inclusion.


    I'm with Lewis.  I would like to know the original discussion that lead to the ban on additional crew.
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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    Quoting CharlieM:
    Quote:
    I'm with Lewis.  I would like to know the original discussion that lead to the ban on additional crew.

    The only thread I could find was this one from 2010.  Looks like I changed my opinion again. 
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
    The Centauri learned this lesson once.
    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:
    Quoting CharlieM:
    Quote:
    I'm with Lewis.  I would like to know the original discussion that lead to the ban on additional crew.

    The only thread I could find was this one from 2010.  Looks like I changed my opinion again. 



    not very definitive

    A person asks, and people say it isn't allowed.  Not a consensus or a ruling

    And I like to think your opinion has  evolved
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
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    Well my opinion on crew is that it needs to be in the chart

    "Additional Make-up' is not in the chart But many variants are

    Chief Makeup Artist,
    Department Head,
    Make-Up Artist,
    Head Make-Up Artist,
    Key Make-Up,
    Key Make-Up Artist,
    Key Makeup Artist & Hairstylist,
    Lead Makeup Artist,
    Make-up,
    Makeup and Hair Designer,
    Makeup Artist,
    Make-Up Designer,
    Makeup Artist & Hair to [Cast Name],
    Makeup for [Cast Name]

    I don't see any "Additional"

    Given we have a chart to convert the credited role to the DVDP role it is a chart of what to include, not what to exclude.

    In fact in the rules before the chart it states.

    "If someone is not credited with one of these roles (or direct translations of these roles), do not include them in the Crew section. "

    From what I have seen is credits for "Additional Makeup Artist" come after the Key, or principal make-up artists.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
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    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:
    I enter:

  • Robotic Special Effects, because it is still a special effects credit.

  • Prosthetic Make-up Effects, because it is still a make-up effects credit.

  • Crowd Make-up Artist, because it is still a make-up artist credit.


  • If you want to enter 'Addition Make-up Artists', I will not argue with you.


    I am not sure if I would agree with "Crowd Make-up Artist"

    I would agree that the others should be in the chart.  But when searching the threads and community opinion (which people seem to vary their opinion) it looks like to me that the overwhelming sentiment is if it is not in the chart don't contribute it.  I see that time and time again that people agree that a role should be in the chart, but state not to contribute it until it is.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
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    It seems to me we should use the process in the rules rules forum to get the additional roles added to the crew chart

    Which is:

    Start a post in the rules forum
    Gain a consensus
    Open a ticket to a post with the proposed changes.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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    Quoting Scooter1836:
    Quote:
    It seems to me we should use the process in the rules rules forum to get the additional roles added to the crew chart

    Which is:

    Start a post in the rules forum
    Gain a consensus
    Open a ticket to a post with the proposed changes.



    Good luck with that.  I went through that process twice.  Once for a dividers rules mod, which had consensus, and 1 for adding prosthetic make up to make up effects.

    Both submitted July and Nov 2012 and nary a response...
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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    Quoting Scooter1836:
    Quote:
    Well my opinion on crew is that it needs to be in the chart

    "Additional Make-up' is not in the chart But many variants are

    Chief Makeup Artist,
    Department Head,
    Make-Up Artist,
    Head Make-Up Artist,
    Key Make-Up,
    Key Make-Up Artist,
    Key Makeup Artist & Hairstylist,
    Lead Makeup Artist,
    Make-up,
    Makeup and Hair Designer,
    Makeup Artist,
    Make-Up Designer,
    Makeup Artist & Hair to [Cast Name],
    Makeup for [Cast Name]

    I don't see any "Additional"

    Given we have a chart to convert the credited role to the DVDP role it is a chart of what to include, not what to exclude.

    In fact in the rules before the chart it states.

    "If someone is not credited with one of these roles (or direct translations of these roles), do not include them in the Crew section. "

    From what I have seen is credits for "Additional Makeup Artist" come after the Key, or principal make-up artists.


    Are you saying MakeUp Artist is incorrect since they have the word "Additional" in them?
    (I hope you recognize your (slightly adapted) quote)
    So why is "Additional" suddenly incorrect if it is placed directly in front of the credit, but correct if it is placed as descriptor for a whole group?

    The job done is surely the same (usually something sub-ordinated to the job done by the principal crew).
    So where exactly is the difference between this scenario:
    Group-Header: Additional MakeUp by XYZ
    John Doe -> MakeUp Artist

    and the scenario in the OP?
    In both cases John Doe is doing Additional MakeUp.
    It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
    But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


    Registrant since 05/22/2003
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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    Quoting CharlieM:
    Quote:
    Quoting Scooter1836:
    Quote:
    It seems to me we should use the process in the rules rules forum to get the additional roles added to the crew chart

    Which is:

    Start a post in the rules forum
    Gain a consensus
    Open a ticket to a post with the proposed changes.



    Good luck with that.


    The problem here might be the word "Consensus".
    For me it is quite simple: If we do agree not to enter "Additional Anything" the stress is supposed to be on the second word.
    Means: If the premise (Group Header) isn't fulfilling the requirements (has the word Additional) logically the content of the group should not be entered.

    Others obviously disagree, which is fine for me.
    But in this case it is probably not really what I would call a "Consensus", especially not, if it takes 4(!) pages of disagreement to not reach a conclusion.
    Granted, this is nothing too unusual, since agreements are harder to reach the more people (and conflicting interests) are involved.
    And be assured, I too would be showing my teeth if someone told me that data I've been (with best intent) submitting for years, was in fact incorrect.
    Lets face it, the interpretation that a group-divider is not a group-divider anymore, just because a company-name shows up in it, is highly questionable. And should be understood as what it actually is: The attempt to find a justification for possibly incorrect data.
    It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
    But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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     Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
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    <edit> post not necessary after Lewis edited his <edit>

    Charlie
     Last edited: by CharlieM
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