One of the 1926 re-edits is is the DB. I don't have it in my collection but it is my understanding that some scenes are deleted and it is in B/W only.

Everything yoiu list there, telecine, is a remake using the title. The 1931 is not a remake it is a different version of 1925 version.

Skip

I am not a specialist if OLD films, though I am a bit of a historian. There are companies out there that do specialize in such films and it may well have been released. The fact that it is not in our database at this time is essentially irrelevant. The bigger question and one I can't supply the answer to is whether or not it has been released to DVD, Dan might have a better idea on this, or not. I think he might be more familiar with the subject and the companies involved. I think we should err on the side of caution since there is a second version of the film. After all what harm is done. If the '31 has been released or if it gets released in the future then it would need to be changed at any rate. It's not something I am neccessarily favorable to, in general, but there are exceptions to near everything and this appears to fall into that category.

Skip

Quoting Dan W:

Quote:
One of the 1926 re-edits is is the DB. I don't have it in my collection but it is my understanding that some scenes are deleted and it is in B/W only.

If it is the database I can't find it as I have already said. In any event, if it is there then it should have have something recorded such as 1926 Version to distinguish it from the original version. As I said to Skip, according to the rules we distinguish subsequent versions from the original not the other way round. I can still see no reason to have the Edition recorded as 1925 Version for this profile.

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Then go prove that their is no release, as I said it is irrelevant whether or not it is in the database. I suggested you engage Dan since he is far morefamiliar with antique film distributors than I am.

The only one I have any familiarity with at all is Kino, but ther dozens of companies that specialize in public domain releases (low quality), like Madacy. But dan probably has some better ideas where to look than I. I can recognize the distinct possibility that it is out there, as I said antique films are not my specialty. What I can do is use my historical knowledge to recognize that there are TWO differing versions of the same film, and it therefore seems reasonable to include that in the Edition field. As oipposed to somebody finding and putting it in the Db and then remembering Oh, I now I have to go fix the other one.

Skip

But Skip, the issue of whether or not there is such a DVD is irrelevant. For what it is worth, I can't find one. Even if there is one, it hasn't been contributed and even if it was, the later version is the one that according to the rules would have to contain the distinguishing data, not the original.

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
You are missing the poiunt I am trying to find a reasonable middle ground based on historical knowledge. you don't want to do that, so go PROVE that there is no DVD release of '31.

I don't have time for this kind of garbage, all I anm trying to do is find a middle position, and you want to argue. SO PROVE IT. I ahve evn suggestd you work with Dan, who has far more knowledge of antique DVD distributors than I do, but you want to argue. And I am tired of playing. You have my position and I have suggested how to resolve it IF you are interested in doing so.

Skip

Well Skip, I am sorry to hear you feel that way. I am not arguing, I am discussing. The difference is in the attitude of the other participants in the discussion.

Voting no is not a middle ground. You and Dan W are saying that I am wrong.

As I have already said, even if a DVD for the 1926 or 1931 version exists, and I can't find one, no one has contributed profiles for them and they would have to distingush themselves from the original 1925 edition, not the other way round.

I don't see how it is relevant to the discussion for me to prove that there isn't a 1931 version of the film released on DVD.

I'm in favor of Ben Hur: A Tale of the Christ since I see this as a title with a subtitle, such as Joseph: King of Dreams.

As for the version, I don't think we've input dated version names on original versions on the chance that a later different edition of the same film would be released. Examples would include Earthquake and Midway which have existing longer TV versions that aren't on DVD (yet). We didn't put any version name on Superman II prior to (or even after) release of The Richard Donner Cut.

Therefore, I don't think it's justified to vote 'no' on removal of the "1925 Version" from Ben Hur: A Tale of the Christ.

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
And I have a different view of that DVD if it exists. The ONLY way I can back your position is if it doesn't exist. If it is available, it lack of presence in our data base at this time is totally irrelevant. If I have learned anything,in all the thousands of titles I have audited, it is when you think you've got the answer the next disc tells you you don't. Which means that, if it exists, tomorrow some user will buy it and Contribute it, and then I will have to hunt you down and slap you. Like I said its a middle ground position and allows for error on the side of caution.

So IF you want me to change my voite you have to prove to me that there is no distributor that has it and I have suggested that you work with Dan as he mighht have better clue than I where to look(what Distributors are likely to be involved). The reason I say you are arguing is because i am offering a reasonable middle ground and you want none of it, that tyo me takes it out of the realm of discussion and into argument, and all you want to doi is persuade me you are right. I have told you what to do, now its up to you.


Skip

Skip/Dan W,

As a starting point, I have put together a brief history of the film based on some freely available information:

Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ - A History

There is an apt quote on the General Lew Wallace Study and Museum website:

"My God, did I set all of this in motion?"

Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ by General Lew Wallace was published by Harper and Brothers on November 12, 1880. (See: http://www.ben-hur.com/benhur.html) (See also Dan W’s post for images of the book).

Ben-Hur, the stage play, opened in 1899 and ran for over twenty years. (See: http://www.albany.edu/writers-inst/fnf98n5.html) (See also: http://www.ben-hur.com/benhur.html)

1907 Film

In 1907, the Kalem Company made a 20 minute version of General Lew Wallace's sprawling Biblical epic by stealing some shots of a mock chariot race at a fireworks show at Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, and adding some interiors. (See: http://www.albany.edu/writers-inst/fnf98n5.html) Wallace’s estate sued the makers of that first Ben-Hur movie — the filmmakers lost and paid dearly. Kalem was ordered to pay $25,000 in damages, which was likely more than it even cost to produce the film.  (See: http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/52/benhur.htm) (See also : http://www.ben-hur.com/benhur.html)

1925 Film

On August 2, 1921, Henry Wallace sold the film rights to his father’s novel for $600,000. (See: http://www.ben-hur.com/benhur.html)

Fred Niblo directed the film and William Wyler, who would re-make the story in 1959, was an assistant director. (See: http://www.ben-hur.com/benhur.html)

Featuring 125,000 extras, (See: http://www.filmsite.org/benh.html) the film ended up costing M-G-M approximately four million dollars and was one of the most costly films of the silent era. It opened on December 30, 1925, at the George M. Cohan Theater in New York City and received rave reviews. (See: http://www.ben-hur.com/benhur.html) The film appears in the AFI’s Top 400 Films at number 35, one ahead of the 1959 version (See: http://www.afi.com/Docs/tvevents/pdf/movies400.pdf)

“A minor change version” of the film was re-released with English language interior titles with musical track added. (See: http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v3=1&ti=1,1&SEQ=20070610020205&Search%5FArg=ben%2Dhur&Search%5FCode=TALL&CNT=25&PID=4737&SID=1) According to IMDB, this was released in 1931 (See: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0016641/alternateversions)

We all know the 1959 version so I won’t go into that.

Others are welcome to contribute anything to what I have provided.