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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Middle name: a pure american concept ? |
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Registered: March 20, 2007 | Posts: 78 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Squirrelecto: Quote:
Don't know about the origins of it but the majority of the time a male Greek's middle name will be his father's first name, whereas this is not a common practice in the UK. Not sure if it's the same for female Greeks. It's not only typical for Greeks. It wasn't unusual in Germany to give the son his father's or grandfather's first name as second name (and the daughter the name of the mother/grandmother) and it is still a tradition in more traditional regions and/or familys. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,279 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting JonM: Quote: = It isn't correct in written English because you can have several given names; which one is in the middle? It's just that most people only have one if any
I read a story in the paper this morning about a woman who gave her daughter over a 100 'middle' names. All related to boxers, apparently her parents started it with her and she wanted to carry on the 'tradition'. | | | IVS Registered: January 2, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Astrakan: Quote: Quoting Rifter:
Quote: Quoting Astrakan:
Quote: It's the same in Sweden as it is in Germany. Emigrating to Canada it's been giving me some headaches, as my "middle" name is my primary name but all my identifications have only my "first" name and my last name. Stupid first/middle name system.
KM
No, it isn't. Your "official" name is first name: whatever passes for middle name: Surname. That's the point, my official name is NOT the name that comes first on my birth certificate. My official name is what North American's would refer to as my middle name. This is the way my parents intended it, and the way my name appears on all my original Swedish identification documents - except for my birth certificate.
Quoting Rifter:
Quote: That has nothing to do with the name you use to identify yourself among friends and family. The point is that it's not just friends and family. My "middle" name is supposed to be my primary name, however you slice it, and the name that I'm supposed to be called by by anyone and everyone - be it in an official status or merely friend/family status.
Quoting Rifter:
Quote: One is no more stupid than another, it's just what you grow up with and are familiar with. While that's true, I wasn't so much referring to the tradition itself, and more to the government systems, which I wish were more accomodating than they are. As it stands, every single piece of documentation I have that is issued by the Canadian government has the wrong name listed.
A name which I was never intended to be referred to as, and with which I do not associate myself. Simply because the system applies so much importance on which name is listed first on my birth ceritificate, as opposed to what is my true primary and official name.
KM Now you begin to see the problem Ken, as the programmer, has to deal with. There is simply no way to accommodate all the variations that exist, so he made an arbitrary decision, albeit probably unconsciously, to use the standard American system, because he is most familiar with that. You will simply have to learn to work with that fact. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote: Quoting Lithurge:
Quote:
Nope they don't get called middle name on forms. But you'll never see a form requesting a 'christian' name either.
In day to day conversation they are referred to as first, middle and surname.
And is this middle name always a 'supplementary given name' or does it cover the American maiden name model as well? I would say no to that last. The maiden name doesn't replace the given middle name so much as substitute for it. It's a way to indicate the bride's family affiliation as well as her new family surname. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote: I find this discussion quite interesting, thank you all for your constructive input.
For me one question remains:
Why is there a need for a middle name field in DVD Profiler?
It is source for many discussions and uncertainty and it looks like all the passports in the world (including US) can make it with given names(s), Surname. It's necessary because you may have to differentiate between several John Smith actors. The simplest way is to include the middle name, but even that may not be enough in some cases. Certain names seem to go together and you find them repeated throughout a culture. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 28, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,299 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: Now you begin to see the problem... I've been seeing the problem all along. I live with the problem every day. Quoting Rifter: Quote: You will simply have to learn to work with that fact. Where have you seen me argue for a change to the program? In fact, I've stated in this thread I don't see the need for a change. I'm merely making conversation. KM | | | Tags, tags, bo bags, banana fana fo fags, mi my mo mags, TAGS! Dolly's not alone. You can also clone profiles. You've got questions? You've got answers? Take the DVD Profiler Wiki for a spin. | | | Last edited: by Astrakan |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | A lot of women, at least in the US, over a certain age, say 70+, were never given a middle name. It was expected that once they married, they took their husbands name and their maiden name became their middle name. Of course that's not true now-a-days, in fact I know several men who took their wives last name! The times they are a changin' |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 374 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
It's necessary because you may have to differentiate between several John Smith actors. The simplest way is to include the middle name, but even that may not be enough in some cases. Certain names seem to go together and you find them repeated throughout a culture. I understand that John, but why do we need an extra field for this? His middle name could go as a supplementary first name into the first name field, and then you can differentiate. |
| Registered: March 16, 2007 | Posts: 280 |
| Posted: | | | | Quote: It's necessary because you may have to differentiate between several John Smith actors. The simplest way is to include the middle name, but even that may not be enough in some cases. Certain names seem to go together and you find them repeated throughout a culture. That argument doesn't make sense. Suppose you have a John Allen Smith and a John Bynes Smith. At present they are distinguished using the middle name field as John/Allen/Smith and John/Bynes/Smith. Setting it up using Given Name(s)/Surname, they would instead be John Allen/Smith and John Bynes/Smith. Still readily distinguished. I'm not arguing for this change, but I don't see any greater conflict in name differentiation than we already have if we used it. It may -possibly- reduce the number of conflicts (no more question about JD//Smith vs J/D/Smith), but I'm sure someone could find new problems to replace them with. This would make five primary naming problems (that I can think of) that would need to be addressed if anyone (ie: not me) wanted to come up with an idea of how to better handle the whole naming thing: middle names, Asian name order, compound names, maiden names and married names (only with respect to name changes for common names). | | | Last edited: by Kinematics |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | To me this similar to another issue. This program is American, written in Kansas City, MO, USA(Rome). When in Rome do as the Romans do, don't expect to tell Rome how to do things. We have allowed for the name to be handled in whatever way is appropriate WITH DOCUMENTATION. Seems simple to me. IF thje middle name is purely an American concept, that would be in keeping with program being written in the USA. <muttering to self> Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,394 |
| Posted: | | | | [mounting jingoistic soapbox…] Why is it that non-Americans always expect Americans to adapt to their custom/usage? As has been pointed out, this program was written in America by Americans. It seems to me that numerous concessions to the non-American user of DVDP have already been given - ability to translate, multiple rating systems, original title field, multiple region fields, etc., etc. About the current issue, just because the American standard name includes a middle name (granted that there are many exceptions to this standard) why should the program be altered to include only given names(s), Surname? If you want only two name field, only use two - and keep the date IN YOUR LOCAL DATABASE.
The program is not - and cannot be - all things to/for all people. I don’t know where the largest group of users is, I suspect it is in the USA. [dismounting jingoistic soapbox…]
FWIW the original poster was only asking a question not for a change to the program. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole) Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges. DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
| Registered: March 16, 2007 | Posts: 280 |
| Posted: | | | | Quote: Why is it that non-Americans always expect Americans to adapt to their custom/usage? [ counter-jingoistic soapbox]And why is it that Americans are always so paranoid when asked to look at the data from a global, locale-agnostic perspective? It's like they feel the world is out to get them or something.[/ counter-jingoistic soapbox] Quote: FWIW the original poster was only asking a question not for a change to the program. And answering the question inevitably leads to exploring what would happen if changes were made to the program. Doesn't mean we're advocating changes be made any more than the OP. The current design is simple, and works well enough, but you can hardly claim that it doesn't have any problems. Someone brings up a question and maybe a different way of looking at the data, and you poke at it a bit to see what would happen if you did this or that to it, how it might fare under other problem cases, etc, and try to figure out if it would be a significant improvement over the current setup. If it is, you look at implementation costs and conversion costs, etc. You may decide it's not worth it for any number of reasons, but it's important to keep an open mind about the possibility of improvement. To refuse to improve simply because it's "unamerican", or the result of an idea or issue from outside the country, is, well, stupid. Unless of course you're refusing to deal with any localization or internationalization issues at all, in which case it doesn't matter. However, happily, DVDP is not that isolationist in its design. |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 374 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Kinematics: Quote:
You may decide it's not worth it for any number of reasons, but it's important to keep an open mind about the possibility of improvement. To refuse to improve simply because it's "unamerican", or the result of an idea or issue from outside the country, is, well, stupid. Unless of course you're refusing to deal with any localization or internationalization issues at all, in which case it doesn't matter. However, happily, DVDP is not that isolationist in its design. Thank you for this refreshing comment, it quite stands out to some of the narrow minded ones that I have read before. And Skip, so this program is written in the US, does that disallow any non-US users to comment or discuss any aspects of the program? I suggest that you keep everything that is purely based on american standards LOCAL. BTW I give a lot of credits to Ken who has manged to make this program quite international clearly seeing the benefits of a diversified user base. | | | Last edited: by sugarjoe |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote: Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
You may decide it's not worth it for any number of reasons, but it's important to keep an open mind about the possibility of improvement. To refuse to improve simply because it's "unamerican", or the result of an idea or issue from outside the country, is, well, stupid. Unless of course you're refusing to deal with any localization or internationalization issues at all, in which case it doesn't matter. However, happily, DVDP is not that isolationist in its design.
Thank you for this refreshing comment, it quite stands out to some of the narrow minded ones that I have read before.
And Skip, so this program is written in the US, does that disallow any non-US users to comment or discuss any aspects of the program?
I suggest that you keep everything that is purely based on american standards LOCAL. Well, I have to say that I agree with Ken (KDH). As he said, this program is 100% American in origin, right down to its red, white, and blue toenails. The author has made tons of concessions for ease of use to non-Americans - more so, in my opinion, than most other programs you find on the market. It gets more than a little tiresome to hear some non-American carping about how this or that isn't right because it isn't the way HE thinks it ought to be, that somehow Ken (the author) is shirking his duty for not being MORE accommodating than he has been. Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I'm more than a little tired of hearing that America is at fault for everything that's wrong in the world. I wonder just how well the world would fare if America took its technology, its money, its expertise, and its military and just left the rest of the world to get along on its own. Maybe some of the gripers ought to think about that for awhile before they start bitching again. Just for the record, I'm not referring to anybody in particular, but if you feel like I was aiming at you, then you are probably one of those who is guilty of the griping. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 374 |
| Posted: | | | | Rifter,
I am sorry to say this, but you are completely missing the point here. |
| Registered: March 28, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,299 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: It gets more than a little tiresome to hear some non-American carping about how this or that isn't right because it isn't the way HE thinks it ought to be... I think there's a lot less of this going on than you think. Based on how you responded to me in this thread makes me suspect that you sometimes interpret things differently than how they are, simply because of your worldview. We're all guilty of it, so no big deal, but it's worth keeping in mind that not everyone is out to get you. KM | | | Tags, tags, bo bags, banana fana fo fags, mi my mo mags, TAGS! Dolly's not alone. You can also clone profiles. You've got questions? You've got answers? Take the DVD Profiler Wiki for a spin. | | | Last edited: by Astrakan |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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