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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Previous   Next
Contribution Rules-Update?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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<shakes head> Here we go again. If a user doesn't understand that IMDb (Intenet Movie Database) is a third party database, his license to use a computer should be summarily revoked.        

I don't understand, I never have any kind of problem understanding this stuff, yet others do.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
Invelos Software, Inc. RepresentativeKen Cole
Invelos Software
Registered: March 10, 2007
United States Posts: 4,282
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There is a difference between researching via third party sites and copying data from third party sites.  Use your best judgement.  To give a couple of examples:

- Checking a few online retailers to find a consensus for an upcoming DVD's release date: OK
- Copying the cast and crew (via automation or not) from the IMDB: NOT OK
Invelos Software, Inc. Representative
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantbobb
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 489
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I'm just wondering if when the new rules are created and posted. That maybe all of us need to take the contribution test again, and make sure the third party definition is part.

Personally I was a bit surprised when this site was opened Ken did not require the test again.

Bobb

(Who is sure folks will think of me as the kid who reminded the teacher she forgot to assign homework!)     
Do Cheshire Cats drink evaporated milk?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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To me there are TWO simple comments in the Rules that tell me all I need to know

1) "The authoritative source for information submitted should be the DVD itself."
2) "Please don't submit content from a third party database, and always verify the specifications printed on the cover.  In both cases, errors abound, so always verify the information directly from the DVD whenever possible.

This is not hard to comprehend and is reinforced at several points throughout the Rules.

I also agree with ken's comment. And I think the test needs to be re-instated.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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First, "third party entity" is different from "third party database".  A third party database is usually hosted at a third party entity, but a "third party entity" has a scope well beyond the range of mere "third party database".

Second, "third party database" has a rather broad scope.  In reference to the forbiddence of using third party database information, how am I to determine the SRP?  All shopping sites are third party databases.  IMDB is forbidden.  The DVD producer's site is almost certainly being run off of a database so I can't even use that (or do they count as "second party"? see below for more).  I believe I read that a hardcopy version of a database is not an exception to the rule, so I can't use the prices in a catalog, since the catalog is just a formatted version of a database.  Maybe I could find a press release with the price on it, but if that's being served out of a database (eg: AnimeOnDVD.com keeps a record of all the press releases sent out by the US anime DVD producers), does that still get trumped by the rule?

This seems pedantic nitpicking, but the point is that a strictly literal interpretation of what Ken said really does seem to prevent almost any source for this bit of data.

Suppose the DVD producer is considered a "second party".  Well, what exactly defines a "second party", and how is it distinguished from a "third party"?  Getting into legal terminology, I'm surprised Unicus hasn't stepped in to say, "That's too complicated!"  The point, though, is that neither "third party" nor "database" is clearly defined in the minds of most users, and even the way that I think of them may not match what Ken intended.


On the other hand, the reason Ken makes a point of this is to prevent 'theft' (ie: copyright violation).  If I remember correctly, prices (and numbers in general) cannot be copyrighted (some major chain tried to use that to sue a company that reprinted the prices on the specials being run).  Thus you might say that any numeric/date/price values may be sourced from anywhere since they cannot be considered a copyright violation.  That distinction would need to be made clear to the users, though, if it applied.


Next, with Hal's distinction of 'reference' and 'source', those are two different terms, and mean different things.  There's a difference between going to IMDB and noting that they say that the CoO is the UK  vs.  going to IMDB to find the name of the production company and their website, and then searching that website to find the company's address by which to determine the CoO.  The first case uses IMDB as a source, the second case as a reference.


[soapbox]Any terms we use in the rules which are either specific to the program or may be confusing or interpreted in different ways need to be well defined within the rules themselves.  Despite Unicus's calls for simplicity, lack of definition can cause more confusion than slightly longer wordings.  Better of course to be able to be able to use terms that don't need specialized definitions, but that's not always possible.[/soapbox]
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorBad Father
Registered: July 23, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 4,596
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
To me there are TWO simple comments in the Rules that tell me all I need to know

1) "The authoritative source for information submitted should be the DVD itself."
2) "Please don't submit content from a third party database, and always verify the specifications printed on the cover.  In both cases, errors abound, so always verify the information directly from the DVD whenever possible.

This is not hard to comprehend and is reinforced at several points throughout the Rules.

I also agree with ken's comment. And I think the test needs to be re-instated.

Skip


To you and me it is easy to comprehend, Skip...we've been around the block...for years .

But it's become quite obvious to me that many new users don't quite comprehend this.  All I was asking for was some clarification in the Rules.  I didn't intend to open a can-o-worms or cause a firestorm .
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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I know, pal.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantDr. Killpatient
Here's my card
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,917
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Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote:
I didn't intend to open a can-o-worms or cause a firestorm .

Something's sure spiking the water that has everybody wanting to pick a fight.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKevin
Registered March 22, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 609
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Quoting bobb:
Quote:
I'm just wondering if when the new rules are created and posted. That maybe all of us need to take the contribution test again, and make sure the third party definition is part.

I'd rather that there be loyalty tests.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
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Quoting Dr. Killpatient:
Quote:
Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote:
I didn't intend to open a can-o-worms or cause a firestorm .

Something's sure spiking the water that has everybody wanting to pick a fight.


It's because we don't have a current rule discussion going on in the committee forum to vent our frustrations on. 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,202
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Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
There is a difference between researching via third party sites and copying data from third party sites.  Use your best judgement.  To give a couple of examples:

- Checking a few online retailers to find a consensus for an upcoming DVD's release date: OK
- Copying the cast and crew (via automation or not) from the IMDB: NOT OK


Thanks for that Ken.  I believe this is exactly what Hal was trying to get at.  There are certain fields that require us to look somewhere other than the DVD.
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Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
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We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
There is a difference between researching via third party sites and copying data from third party sites.  Use your best judgement.  To give a couple of examples:

- Checking a few online retailers to find a consensus for an upcoming DVD's release date: OK
- Copying the cast and crew (via automation or not) from the IMDB: NOT OK


Thanks for that Ken.  I believe this is exactly what Hal was trying to get at.  There are certain fields that require us to look somewhere other than the DVD.


Yeah, it's nice to have an example to look at. A lot of us forget how subtle a difference between referencing data and copying data actually is, escpecially for our non english speaking friends.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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We have people here who speak English? Any version will do.    

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantverdejt
Registered: May 26, 2007
United States Posts: 117
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Quoting RHo:
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Quoting Dan W:
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You could even reword what was on their site and it would still be the same.

Rewording is definitely not copying.



Not to truly beat a dead horse but if you copy,reword call it what you want it is still plagiarizism. Years ago before the personal computer people used books for research. Back then if you copied and reworded the information without proper credit you were guilty of plagiarizism. With the age of computers this word has seemed to slip from our vocabulary. You can call it what you want but if you take that information without giving proper credit then you are stealing. In this age of computers there is a new crime that is abound and can be prosecuted for this. Taking information directly from website/database without proper credit is stealing. Not to mention you really don't know if it's correct.
Just watch the damn movie credits and use that. Yes you will have actors that use aliases, there are other sources you can use to verify your information. You can go the website of the studio that released the DVD for information you require. Your other option is to post here with your question and I'm sure somebody here can point you in the right direction to get your answers. I myself have found IMDB to grossly incorrect a good portion of the time.  Just my 2 cents.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Grossly incorrect a good portion of the time? You are being far too generous

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 2,759
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Quoting verdejt:
Quote:
... Back then if you copied and reworded the information without proper credit you were guilty of plagiarizism. ...
Just watch the damn movie credits and use that....

First of all, we are not talking about credits here. We all agree that they have to come from the disc. We are talking about things like country of origin, production year, SRP et al. Those decisions can be and have to be based on third party information because it is nowhere on the DVD. We consult several data sources (e.g. the theatrical release on IMDb) and base our results on this research (prod. year). We credit our data source in the contribution notes as would have done anybody else back then, therefore no plagiarism and no copying.
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