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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2  Previous   Next
Child Profile Features on Main Profiles
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorprimetime21
Registered: October 4, 2008
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So this has been one that has always confused me.  I realize that on a multi-format release, the child profile is not required to add.  However, I feel like what to do with the features on the second format is not cut and dry.

The rules say:
"Sets containing the same film on multiple media types (such as a Blu-ray/DVD combo pack) are to be entered as a normal profile for the main media type (Blu-ray in this example), with all included media types checked. A combo which includes HD media (HD-DVD, Blu-ray) as well as DVD should use the details from the HD media in the main profile. However, you may add an additional profile by Disc ID for the DVD content and add this profile to the Box Set contents for the Blu-ray profile."

Although I realize this specifies a combo that includes HD media as well as DVD, this was written before the advent of UHD, so I would assume the same rules apply to UHD/Blu-ray combos.  This seems to say to me that you only add the information from the main media type to the main profile.  I've seen people add the information from the inferior format (child profile) to the main profile.  I personally hate having child profile information in the main profile. My thought process around this when it comes to contributing is that when I am contributing a new profile, I don't add child profile information to the main, but if it is already there I just change it locally.  It seems to be most people take this approach no matter which side of the fence they're on.  However, sometimes people do add the child profile features to an already existent main profile.

I'm not sure what in the rules specifically supports this.  If it's going to be ambiguous, I prefer the "live and let live" approach where if the existing profile isn't the way you like, change it locally but don't contribute.  I feel like what I quoted above is the clearest part of the rules pertaining to this and it strongly suggests you do not add child profile information to main profile.  I feel this is clearer than "well child profiles aren't required" as I don't believe that then means that you add this information to the parent.  Along these lines, I feel that a no vote when adding child profile information to a parent profile is warranted. 

Am I missing something in the rules that more explicitly deals with this more than what I cited?  Also, I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but the search feature on the forum is brutal and never provides me with good results.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorrdodolak
Registered: March 18, 2007
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Child profiles are optional thus all features on the release should be added to the main profile as a normal profile.  The film specific details, assuming the set contain the same film on multiple media types, should be based on the film details for the highest quality media.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorprimetime21
Registered: October 4, 2008
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Quoting rdodolak:
Quote:
Child profiles are optional thus all features on the release should be added to the main profile as a normal profile.


I don't see in the rules where it states this--can you let me know?  Is this something Ken clarified outside of the rules?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting rdodolak:
Quote:
Child profiles are optional thus all features on the release should be added to the main profile as a normal profile.

No.  The rules are not ambiguous about this.
Quote:
Sets containing the same film on multiple media types (such as a Blu-ray/DVD combo pack) are to be entered as a normal profile for the main media type (Blu-ray in this example)

...A combo which includes HD media (HD-DVD, Blu-ray) as well as DVD should use the details from the HD media in the main profile.

The rules make it clear that the disc containing the "main media type" (the HD media) is to be used to populate the profile.  The SD disc may optionally be added, and any features on that disc would be added to that profile.

I don't see anything in the rules making any allowance for adding features from the DVD to the HD profile.

---------------
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorprimetime21
Registered: October 4, 2008
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Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting rdodolak:
Quote:
Child profiles are optional thus all features on the release should be added to the main profile as a normal profile.

No.  The rules are not ambiguous about this.
Quote:
Sets containing the same film on multiple media types (such as a Blu-ray/DVD combo pack) are to be entered as a normal profile for the main media type (Blu-ray in this example)

...A combo which includes HD media (HD-DVD, Blu-ray) as well as DVD should use the details from the HD media in the main profile.

The rules make it clear that the disc containing the "main media type" (the HD media) is to be used to populate the profile.  The SD disc may optionally be added, and any features on that disc would be added to that profile.

I don't see anything in the rules making any allowance for adding features from the DVD to the HD profile.

---------------


This is what I always thought and also don't see anything that suggests contrary to it.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorThe Movieman
DVDP User Since 2007
Registered: March 18, 2007
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This came up three years ago:
http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=943372

Personally, since the Blu-ray child profile is optional, the features should be added to the parent profile.
 Last edited: by The Movieman
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
Registered: October 22, 2015
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This is my understanding, in a 4K parent (Main Feature)/child Blu-ray (Main Feature) combo set:

•  The child Blu-ray main feature disc is neither a Bonus Feature Film disc nor a Bonus Material ONLY disc.
•  Features found on the child Blu-ray disc pertain to the main feature on the child Blu-ray disc, as per Disc Features rules.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
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Personally, I've stopped using child profiles for the Blu-ray disc of 4K/Blu-ray combo sets, and for the DVD disc in Blu-ray/DVD combo sets (and am in the process of actively removing existing ones from my database), as they really didn't add any value for me. I just got tired of seeing pointless double profiles for the same movies, and they just bloated my database, with additional sets of the same cast and crew, additional sets of the same cover scans, and so on. Any cast/crew corrections I was doing always had to be copied over to the child, and therefore prompted two individual contributions instead of one. Back-ups took longer, and resulted in bigger files (again: double sets of cover scans). And all for what? Nothing. I was getting absolutely nothing from these child profiles. So I'm getting rid of them.

For me, the sole purpose of those additional discs is when they contain bonus features that aren't present on the "main media type". Since child profiles are optional, I do feel that these features should be added to the profile of the main media type. Looking though the database, this seems to be common practice: I've hardly seen any profiles for 4K/Blu-ray combo sets with all features on the Blu-ray disc only, that didn't include those features on the main profile. I don't even think I've been submitting much of these - likely mostly on new profiles - as they're pretty much *always* listed already. There are so many 4K/Blu-ray sets where the features are only included on the Blu-ray disc - I don't really see who would actually benefit from stripping those features away from all of those main media type profiles.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorprimetime21
Registered: October 4, 2008
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so most of what I'm seeing here is that people who are saying the child profile features don't belong in the main profile are quoting rules, whereas those that say do they are citing preference and/or an extrapolation of the "child profiles are optional" clause in the rules.

With that being said, I think there is definitely sufficient information in the rules to warrant exclusion of child profile information on the parent profile.

I still think it would be easier if people maintained their preference locality and didn't override what was had already been submitted first.  That's what I've been doing up until now.  If people start contributing each way, it could start a never-ending back and forth that will likely never be settled since I don't expect Ken to suddenly appear and make any sort of edict on this.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
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I just want to point out a minor problem.

4K discs are region free, Blu-ray discs may not be. So adding features from a Blu-ray disc to a 4K profile may be misrepresenting the accessability of that feature.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorThe Movieman
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Personally, I've stopped using child profiles for the Blu-ray disc of 4K/Blu-ray combo sets, and for the DVD disc in Blu-ray/DVD combo sets (and am in the process of actively removing existing ones from my database), as they really didn't add any value for me. I just got tired of seeing pointless double profiles for the same movies, and they just bloated my database, with additional sets of the same cast and crew, additional sets of the same cover scans, and so on. Any cast/crew corrections I was doing always had to be copied over to the child, and therefore prompted two individual contributions instead of one. Back-ups took longer, and resulted in bigger files (again: double sets of cover scans). And all for what? Nothing. I was getting absolutely nothing from these child profiles. So I'm getting rid of them.


I'm in the same boat. I never contribute child profiles at all and slowly been going through my collection and removing them from my database.
 Last edited: by The Movieman
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
4K discs are region free, Blu-ray discs may not be. So adding features from a Blu-ray disc to a 4K profile may be misrepresenting the accessability of that feature.

But that's not just an issue with features - that concern applies to the entire presence of a region-coded Blu-ray disc in a combo set that's listed as "region free". Listing a profile for a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo set as "region free" when the Blu-ray disc actually is region-coded is already a misrepresentation in itself - no matter whether there's bonus material on that disc or not. If we call a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo a "pack" or a "set", and of those discs is region coded, then that "pack" or "set" really is no longer region free. One of the discs is, but the set in it's entirety is not. However, somehow we seem to have decided to list each and every profile that includes a 4K disc, no matter what else is included, as region free. Even when the set isn't. I'm not sure how that came to be, exactly.

As I own discs from many different regions and localities, I've personally been toying with the idea to locally fill the Region Coding field of 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo packs with the region coding of the Blu-ray disc, instead of that of the 4K discs, which don't have region coding. Since we know that, there's no real value to me in listing them as "region free" - if I grab a 4K disc from the shelf, I already know that it isn't region-coded - I don't need to look at the profile for that. What is of value to me, is to know what the region of the accompanying Blu-ray disc is, because that actually decides on which player I can watch that particular disc. If I take some Blu-ray discs to watch at a friend's house, someone who doesn't have a region free player, then I have to know which ones he can play. Storing the "lowest common denominator" region coding would be much more helpful to me than listing these sets as region free when those sets in their entirety really aren't region free.

So this is not specifically about "accessability of that feature" but really about "accessability of that entire Blu-ray disc". It's strange to include a region-coded disc under a profile's Media Type, and under the profile's "Discs" tab, and still call that a "region free" set.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Other than that, this whole thing depends on how you look at these profiles. Faced with a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo, what do you see? Do you see a profile for a 4K disc plus a free coaster? Or do you actually see a "set", or a "pack", consisting of two discs? How you look at that likely decides your answer to the question this thread asks.

If you look at such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo as a set, then it doesn't matter on which disc the bonus materials are. The question then isn't whether there are bonus materials included on the 4K disc, but the question is whether there are bonus materials included on the entire set? It's then obvious that bonus material housed on the Blu-ray disc qualifies for entry as well - after all, the profile isn't a profile for a single 4K disc, but is a profile for the entire set. Hence the inclusion of the Blu-ray in the profile's "Media Type" field, and the inclusion of the Blu-ray disc under the profile's "Discs" section. The Blu-ray disc is an integral part of the profile, and as such, bonus material found on that disc qualifies for entry.

For anyone who's still in doubt, I suggest that you look at the back cover of such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo. Does that back cover include a list of bonus features? If it does, that's because the set, in it's entirety, does contain bonus features - no matter on which of the two discs they're placed. If the back cover proudly declares that there's 45 minutes of wonderful featurettes, wouldn't it then be strange to not list them in the profile? Or if you read a review of such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo at, say, Blu-ray.com, does that review then include a section on bonus material? It does. Why? Because, again, the set does contain bonus features - no matter on which of the two discs they're placed. If the distributor, reviewers, and most buyers agree that such a set includes bonus material, why would we then want to have a profile with an empty feature list? Who would benefit from that? Why would DVD Profiler be the only place declaring such a such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo featureless? While those features *are* actually present within the set?

So the question is if we're profiling the set, or are we profiling the main media type only? My view is that we're profiling the set. Again, the fact that the profile's "Media Type" isn't listed as 4K-only, but instead as 4K + Blu-ray, underlines that to me, along with the fact that the Blu-ray disc is listed on the "Discs" tab. It isn't a profile for a 4K disc only - it's a profile for the combo pack in it's entirety, a profile for the entire set. From that ensues that we have to look at the entire set for any bonus material.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantzappman
Registered: September 6, 2008
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Other than that, this whole thing depends on how you look at these profiles. Faced with a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo, what do you see? Do you see a profile for a 4K disc plus a free coaster? Or do you actually see a "set", or a "pack", consisting of two discs? How you look at that likely decides your answer to the question this thread asks.

If you look at such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo as a set, then it doesn't matter on which disc the bonus materials are. The question then isn't whether there are bonus materials included on the 4K disc, but the question is whether there are bonus materials included on the entire set? It's then obvious that bonus material housed on the Blu-ray disc qualifies for entry as well - after all, the profile isn't a profile for a single 4K disc, but is a profile for the entire set. Hence the inclusion of the Blu-ray in the profile's "Media Type" field, and the inclusion of the Blu-ray disc under the profile's "Discs" section. The Blu-ray disc is an integral part of the profile, and as such, bonus material found on that disc qualifies for entry.

For anyone who's still in doubt, I suggest that you look at the back cover of such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo. Does that back cover include a list of bonus features? If it does, that's because the set, in it's entirety, does contain bonus features - no matter on which of the two discs they're placed. If the back cover proudly declares that there's 45 minutes of wonderful featurettes, wouldn't it then be strange to not list them in the profile? Or if you read a review of such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo at, say, Blu-ray.com, does that review then include a section on bonus material? It does. Why? Because, again, the set does contain bonus features - no matter on which of the two discs they're placed. If the distributor, reviewers, and most buyers agree that such a set includes bonus material, why would we then want to have a profile with an empty feature list? Who would benefit from that? Why would DVD Profiler be the only place declaring such a such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo featureless? While those features *are* actually present within the set?

So the question is if we're profiling the set, or are we profiling the main media type only? My view is that we're profiling the set. Again, the fact that the profile's "Media Type" isn't listed as 4K-only, but instead as 4K + Blu-ray, underlines that to me, along with the fact that the Blu-ray disc is listed on the "Discs" tab. It isn't a profile for a 4K disc only - it's a profile for the combo pack in it's entirety, a profile for the entire set. From that ensues that we have to look at the entire set for any bonus material.

+1
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorprimetime21
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I tend to think the contrary to most of what you posted.

Quoting T!M:
Quote:
If you look at such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo as a set, then it doesn't matter on which disc the bonus materials are. The question then isn't whether there are bonus materials included on the 4K disc, but the question is whether there are bonus materials included on the entire set? It's then obvious that bonus material housed on the Blu-ray disc qualifies for entry as well - after all, the profile isn't a profile for a single 4K disc, but is a profile for the entire set. Hence the inclusion of the Blu-ray in the profile's "Media Type" field, and the inclusion of the Blu-ray disc under the profile's "Discs" section. The Blu-ray disc is an integral part of the profile, and as such, bonus material found on that disc qualifies for entry.


When I look at a profile I want to see what's available for me to watch on that disc.  So if there is a 4K UHD/Blu-ray combo, and I put the UHD in, and I see commentary checked off on the main profile, I expect to be able to watch the commentary on that disc.

Quote:
For anyone who's still in doubt, I suggest that you look at the back cover of such a 4KUHD/Blu-ray combo. Does that back cover include a list of bonus features? If it does, that's because the set, in it's entirety, does contain bonus features - no matter on which of the two discs they're placed. If the back cover proudly declares that there's 45 minutes of wonderful featurettes, wouldn't it then be strange to not list them in the profile?


Many, many back covers of movies list the UHD and Blu-ray features separately, where it will say UHD and say something like "Feature Film" and then Blu-ray and have the list of features.  Again, this is routinely done.

Quote:
So the question is if we're profiling the set, or are we profiling the main media type only? My view is that we're profiling the set. Again, the fact that the profile's "Media Type" isn't listed as 4K-only, but instead as 4K + Blu-ray, underlines that to me, along with the fact that the Blu-ray disc is listed on the "Discs" tab. It isn't a profile for a 4K disc only - it's a profile for the combo pack in it's entirety, a profile for the entire set. From that ensues that we have to look at the entire set for any bonus material.


Again, everything you're saying is based upon your thoughts but not upon the rules.  Once more, the rules say this:

"Sets containing the same film on multiple media types (such as a Blu-ray/DVD combo pack) are to be entered as a normal profile for the main media type (Blu-ray in this example), with all included media types checked. A combo which includes HD media (HD-DVD, Blu-ray) as well as DVD should use the details from the HD media in the main profile. However, you may add an additional profile by Disc ID for the DVD content and add this profile to the Box Set contents for the Blu-ray profile."

This states to use the details from the main media type.  I'm not sure I've seen anything in this thread pointing to anything in the rules that contradicts this.

And again, the beauty of this system is people can do whatever they want and keep it local to their database.  And I once more will suggest that people don't submit changes either way to however the profile is contributed initially.  Although I obviously disagree with adding child profile features to the main profile, if they are already that way, I change it locally and don't submit a contribution.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKvack
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I feel that people are mistreating how the main disc should be represented just because they don't like the "optional" child entries. Personally, I like being able to easily figure out which disc has which content.

And where do we draw the line? Are features really different than audio tracks. Some might consider a Spanish dub to be a feature. Or closed captioning. Would you really want them added to the main entry if they only existed on the child?
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