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Country of Origin
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJonM
Registered 28 Dec 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 343
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We currently have two separate threads dealing with a similar issue and I hope people don't think I'm needlessly creating more, but with respect to the original posters I didn't want to send them off-topic. They do after all deal with specific titles and the votes therein.

The issue as I see it so far is that two films, that have always been clearly thought of as a product of the British film industry, are likely to have 'US' as country of origin. I think this is absurd and sets a precedent that should be avoided before it is applied to more countries. I just can't see the point.

The US is the biggest and most influential film industry in the English speaking world. The UK is on a much smaller scale. For every Harry Potter or Bond, the US can throw in a Spider-Man, a Batman and a couple of pirates. Plus produce multiple sequels and remakes seemingly on a whim. Which I love by the way, but the UK doesn't have that sort of freedom even if our producers wanted to make "Grandchildren of Men". Which I hope they don't!

It's even harder for other countries that want big budget shoot 'em ups, but English isn't their first language. The point I'm trying to make is that if a UK producer wants to make a Harry Potter spin off, "The Full Monty 2", or even a sure thing like Bond, and release it worldwide, he's going to need dollars at some point. Which instantly makes it a joint 'US / UK' production. In other words, there's no longer any such thing as a truly, independent British film. Or very few anyway.

So the question for me is, do we follow the money? Those who paid for it, own it. IMO, that makes CoO pointless because a huge amount of entries may end up as 'US' and offer no useful data. I mean, why bother with something so obvious?

Or do we follow the contents theme? That makes the data more useful to someone like me, but is potentially misleading when considering legalities. If we don't have a clear meaning behind the field, some will see the entry as a downright lie.

I wouldn't want to see a joint option as there would be too many 'US', 'US and UK', and not enough 'UK' to be worth anything. And the theme theory isn't always an obvious choice. "United 93" would be an interesting discussion, for instance. But I just want it clarified that we should be following the theme, or the money.

Thank you for listening. I now return you to our regularly scheduled punch-up. 
Jon
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."

DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,179
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Quoting JonM:
Quote:
Or do we follow the contents theme? That makes the data more useful to someone like me, but is potentially misleading when considering legalities. If we don't have a clear meaning behind the field, some will see the entry as a downright lie.


You will have to explain what you mean by 'the contents theme'.  I have an idea but want to make sure I understand before I comment. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJonM
Registered 28 Dec 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 343
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:

You will have to explain what you mean by 'the contents theme'.  I have an idea but want to make sure I understand before I comment. 


Fair enough!

I simply mean that by watching "Get Carter", it's unmistakeably British. I haven't looked. Maybe it was paid for by the US, or even elsewhere, but what I'm suggesting is, it doesn't matter. It's set in Newcastle with a Cockney gangster. I don't need to look further for it's origin.

Where it gets murky is with a film like "Braveheart" or "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves". They look British, but clearly aren't!
Jon
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."

DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
United States Posts: 16,684
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I could be wrong... but it sounds like you are saying if the movie itself takes place in for example the UK... then the CoO should be UK?

If that is the case... I very much disagree... just because a movie is about a certain country don't mean the Country of Origin is of the country the movie plot is set in.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJonM
Registered 28 Dec 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 343
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Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
I could be wrong... but it sounds like you are saying if the movie itself takes place in for example the UK... then the CoO should be UK?

If that is the case... I very much disagree... just because a movie is about a certain country don't mean the Country of Origin is of the country the movie plot is set in.


No, that's not what I'm saying. Otherwise "The Third Man" would get lost. Nevermind genre films like sci-fi, that defy location.

I've used broad examples, but I think about who had the initial idea and who wrote it. I briefly mentioned "United 93". American tragedy, story, actors, but recently voted Best British Film in Empire magazine, because it was a British director and writer. 

For me, origin is where it was conceived, not set. And certainly not filmed.
Jon
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."

DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
United States Posts: 16,684
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Here is what Gerri said in another thread about the CoO...

Quoting Gerri Cole:
Quote:
Yes, that is the intention, Lord of the Rings would be US. It is where the production companies are based.

Elwood Blues is right.

-Gerri


So the intent of the field is where the Production Company is based. So basically... unless they decide to change it... where the original idea comes from don't matter. what matters is the company that produces the film.

EDIT:
HERE is a Link to that Thread
Pete
 Last edited: by Addicted2DVD
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJonM
Registered 28 Dec 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 343
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Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
Here is what Gerri said in another thread about the CoO...

Quoting Gerri Cole:
Quote:
Yes, that is the intention, Lord of the Rings would be US. It is where the production companies are based.

Elwood Blues is right.

-Gerri


So the intent of the field is where the Production Company is based. So basically... unless they decide to change it... where the original idea comes from don't matter. what matters is the company that produces the film.

EDIT:
HERE is a Link to that Thread


Ah, I hadn't seen that thread at all. Thanks, Pete.

If that is the intention of the field, then I think it's a shame. One more field I'll have to lock for local only. Currently it's only going to be accurate (in my sense of the data) for non-english speaking films. 
Jon
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."

DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
United States Posts: 16,684
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No problem... Always glad to help when I can.

On a side note... even though I personally understand this rule... to me I am more concerned with the country that produced it (though I admit not to understand your way completely). There is a lot of rules/fields I don't agree with... which is why I am definitely thankful that we can lock our databases the way we want... could you imagine if we didn't have loks at all! 
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorSquirrelecto
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 793
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Quoting JonM:
Quote:
I've used broad examples, but I think about who had the initial idea and who wrote it. I briefly mentioned "United 93". American tragedy, story, actors, but recently voted Best British Film in Empire magazine, because it was a British director and writer. 


And also a British production company: WORKING TITLE FILMS.

Quote:
Working Title Films is a company registered in England and Wales under registration number: 2755827.

Business Address:
Oxford House
76 Oxford Street
London
W1D 1BS

Registered Offices:
Prospect House
80-110 New Oxford Street
London
WC1A 1HB


http://www.workingtitlefilms.com/terms.htm

If we are using production companies, as Gerri has indicated, then the Country of Origin for UNITED 93 is UK.
 Last edited: by Squirrelecto
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantjohnd
Evening, poetry lovers.
Registered: March 13, 2007
Australia Posts: 298
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Quoting Gerri Cole:
Quote:
Yes, that is the intention, Lord of the Rings would be US. It is where the production companies are based.

Elwood Blues is right.

-Gerri


Now, I violently disagree with this example of COO. If this is the case, then it is to be used to follow the financing of the film. However, it would be of more value to follow the artistic content of the film. Lord of the Rings is clearly a New Zealand production, as the artistic input comes from the production company, WingNut, not the financing company, New Line.

Do we see New Line's vision on the screen, or WingNut's?

Basically, New Line is not the production company. WingNut is. New Line is the financing company. You often see this in Producer credits, where people are listed as producers by the real producers as a personal favour, rather than because they have had any real input into the film.
 Last edited: by johnd
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLopek
Lovely day for a...
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 813
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Agreed. LoTR are definately New Zealand imo.
Andy

"Credited as" Names Database
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting JonM:
Quote:
Or do we follow the contents theme? That makes the data more useful to someone like me, but is potentially misleading when considering legalities. If we don't have a clear meaning behind the field, some will see the entry as a downright lie.


You will have to explain what you mean by 'the contents theme'.  I have an idea but want to make sure I understand before I comment. 


They're basically trying to say that because it takes place in Britain, and is mostly a British cast, its a British movie.  The issue is what is the legal entity in terms of ownership.  Nobody can demonstrate that it is first and foremost a British company.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting Lopek:
Quote:
Agreed. LoTR are definately New Zealand imo.


Try again.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLopek
Lovely day for a...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Quoting Lopek:
Quote:
Agreed. LoTR are definately New Zealand imo.


Try again.

Agreed. LoTR are definately New Zealand imo.

Better?
Andy

"Credited as" Names Database
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorSquirrelecto
Registered: March 13, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 793
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Quoting Lopek:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
Quoting Lopek:
Quote:
Agreed. LoTR are definately New Zealand imo.


Try again.

Agreed. LoTR are definately New Zealand imo.

Better?


Definitely, not definately. Try again. 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 6,635
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LoTR was filmed in New Zealand, that does not mean it was produced by New Zealand.

WingNut would never have been involved in making this film if it weren't for the fact that New Line decided to produce (and finance) it.  That means they (New Line ) were responsible for the film ever happening to begin with.

COO = U.S.A.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
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