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Invelos Forums->General: Announcements Page: 1... 15 16 17 18 19 ...21  Previous   Next
How we moderate (Locked)
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 5,459
Posted:
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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:
Quote:
Forum Moderator: Removed quote

No. Alien's post attacks Invelos and its policy and action/inaction. Your post attacked a forum user, an individual. No double standard.
 Last edited: by Forum Moderator
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormdnitoil
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,777
Posted:
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Was perusing a thread in another forum I visit today and just happened across this post.  I'm copying it here rather than linking to it as it simply illustrates a point.  Bold my me.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatherer 
You might be in for some disappointment if you expect to catalog a 351-title DVD collection with DVD Profiler without paying the $30. A lot of features I care about (maybe you're already aware of this and don't care) are disabled after 50 DVDs if you don't pay...And unpaid regardless of collection size can't use higher-quality cover images and can't contribute to the database.


YMMV, of course, but I've sufficed with the free version all along. My owned library numbers in the 800s, and I've created a few categories to track titles I've rented and seen in a theater, too. It'd be nice to have unrestricted access to the kinds of data-at-a-glance reports you mention, but I can't say it really bothers me to not have them. And I really don't mind adding my own high resolution artwork; I'm used to doing that for my iTunes library and assorted blogging purposes anyway.

As for not being able to contribute to the system, I have to say I don't think I would even try if I had a membership. I ventured into their forum once out of curiosity. I left in horror. I'm content to modify my own information, and not endure the scrutiny of the people who are constantly finding new semantics to debate.


This is the typical reaction I've encountered out there in the real non-Profiler world.  The icing on the cake, of course, is that the person who made this post has over 2500 posts since 2008 on that other board.  Not like he's some newbie who wouldn't recognize a poorly run board when he sees one.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
I like IMDB
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 3,308
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I've seen many posts like that over the years.  I never reply.  What could you possibly say to something like that to defend this place!
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
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Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
Of course there's nobody with a gun to my back. That's silly.


Of course it's silly, it was meant as an exaggerated picture of having no alternative to do something else.

Quote:
I'm here because I like a lot of the people here.

I'm here because I'm naive enough to believe that maybe one day Ken will care enough about this forum to do something about the good people that leave in anger, frustration or disgust. People whose opinions I respect and who've brought improvements to Ken's database either with limitless contributions or awesome plug-ins that we may not ever see again.

I'm here because this would seem to be the choice to go when you have questions or concerns about this program.


I was only talking about this thread, not about the forums as such.
I wouldn't dare to question your motives about being on this forums, because I simply don't have the right to do so.
Sorry for any misunderstanding I might have caused.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDragonfire
Registered: September 3, 2007
Posts: 163
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I just wanted to add something else.

It has been brought up that when someone says they gave a green or red to a post that they are trying to influence other people to follow and do the same thing.  I personally never saw that sort of intent when I've seen people make that type of statement.  I just saw it as people expressing their opinions.

For myself, I don't care who gives a green or red to what post.  I am perfectly willing and capable of deciding for myself when to give to a green or red.  Just about every other active member could mention doing that on a specific post, and that wouldn't make me more likely to follow along and do the same.  I can think for myself and make that decision.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
Posted:
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Quoting Mark Harrison:
Quote:
I've seen many posts like that over the years.  I never reply.  What could you possibly say to something like that to defend this place!

There is a difference between the program and the forum.
You can happily contribute to the database without ever having to see the forum. For a "correct" profile it suffices to read the rules and to switch on your "common sense"-compatible brain units and combine these with some "intention detection"-subroutines. It will work.

Coming to the forums for the first time is like entering a world of it's own and can be compared to the contemporary computer user who, for integrating his WiFi-printer into his network, is entering a professional TechNet. He will for sure get an answer, but it will under no obligation be the answer he expected. And it will usually be an answer that includes all possible error-sources and solutions.
The effect: The new user, who asked a quite simple question, will turn away because of "the scrutiny of the people who are constantly finding new semantics to debate."

The forum, and here especially the "Contribution Discussion", got implemented for finding answers to questions that are not easily to be answered with a little "own brain usage".
The fact that it is a forum and that therefore you get a lot of answers from a lot of individuals, which might even contradict each other is more an indicator of a living community, than it is negative.

What might be (and in fact, often and correctly is) to be seen as a negative point, is the frequently observed "malicious misunderstanding", which usually develops somewhere around page 4 of a thread. But since at this point the original question usually is answered, no real harm is done. Except, of course, to those that still are involved and to those who are expecting a sensible (or only "topic-related") posting after the first appearance of the "malicious misunderstanding"-syndrome.

But even this can be solved by two simple guidelines:
1.) Do not, under no circumstance, read postings in a thread which produces more than 4 pages within a day (which is a very good indicator for an ongoing flame war).

2.) Do only read a thread up to page four, if you continue, you do so on your own risk.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVibroCount
The Truth is Silly Putty
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 5,635
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:

But even this can be solved by two simple guidelines:
1.) Do not, under no circumstance, read postings in a thread which produces more than 4 pages within a day (which is a very good indicator for an ongoing flame war).

2.) Do only read a thread up to page four, if you continue, you do so on your own risk.


I guess I can never look in the lolcats (and similar) threads. I'll miss 'em.

If it wasn't for bad taste, I wouldn't have no taste at all.

Cliff
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
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Quoting Daruma:
Quote:
Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:

But even this can be solved by two simple guidelines:
1.) Do not, under no circumstance, read postings in a thread which produces more than 4 pages within a day (which is a very good indicator for an ongoing flame war).

2.) Do only read a thread up to page four, if you continue, you do so on your own risk.


I guess I can never look in the lolcats (and similar) threads. I'll miss 'em.


That's why they are guidelines and not "rules". 
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
Proudly blocked by liars.
Registered: August 23, 2008
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,656
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
I was only talking about this thread, not about the forums as such.
I wouldn't dare to question your motives about being on this forums, because I simply don't have the right to do so.
Sorry for any misunderstanding I might have caused.


Oh!

That's a fair question. I come into this thread about moderation hoping to see some communication about Invelos regarding it (aside from the two posts that have been made in this 17 page thread).

A bickering about whether or not to say you gave someone a green arrow is not what I expect (relative) to see in a thread about moderation.

(Note, that may come across as snarky and/or sarcastic, but isn't intended).
Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com

"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
I like IMDB
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 3,308
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
Quoting Mark Harrison:
Quote:
I've seen many posts like that over the years.  I never reply.  What could you possibly say to something like that to defend this place!

There is a difference between the program and the forum.
You can happily contribute to the database without ever having to see the forum. For a "correct" profile it suffices to read the rules and to switch on your "common sense"-compatible brain units and combine these with some "intention detection"-subroutines. It will work.


I have seen multiple times on other sites that people tried to contribute to the database, got their butts handed to them, were declined and never tried again.

Right, wrong or whatever, there went potential help for building the database.  And they're telling others not to try.  So there goes even more potential help.  That's even worse.  In some cases I'm sure we don't want their help.  But some people give it an honest effort and get chased away.

Quote:

But even this can be solved by two simple guidelines:
1.) Do not, under no circumstance, read postings in a thread which produces more than 4 pages within a day (which is a very good indicator for an ongoing flame war).

2.) Do only read a thread up to page four, if you continue, you do so on your own risk.


Not bad guidelines.  But isn't it really saying there's a problem over there and I'm just going to stick my head in the sand and ignore it?  What if you're really interested in the outcome of the discussion?  Should you just go away because some others have decided to have their own private war? Should potential improvements be drowned out by bad behavior?  A cynical person could even come to the conclusion that if someone is asking for an improvement you don't care for that you should just start a flame war so nothing can be accomplished.

Those sound like fantastic guidelines that the moderators should take heed of.  The rest of us shouldn't have to put up with it.  I want to ignore the things I'm not interested in.  Not the things where a fight has broken out.

Rather than ignore problems, I'm saying those problem need to be stopped by whatever means necessary.  I don't care how Invelos chooses to put an end to the problems.  I just want it done so I can have a reasonable discussion.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAntares
Registered: May 26, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 595
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Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
I was only talking about this thread, not about the forums as such.
I wouldn't dare to question your motives about being on this forums, because I simply don't have the right to do so.
Sorry for any misunderstanding I might have caused.


Oh!

That's a fair question. I come into this thread about moderation hoping to see some communication about Invelos regarding it (aside from the two posts that have been made in this 17 page thread).

A bickering about whether or not to say you gave someone a green arrow is not what I expect (relative) to see in a thread about moderation.

(Note, that may come across as snarky and/or sarcastic, but isn't intended).


WOW, 7 minutes into the new Romero film and you've abandoned it? Is it that bad, AR?   
 Last edited: by Antares
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
Posted:
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Quoting Mark Harrison:
Quote:
I have seen multiple times on other sites that people tried to contribute to the database, got their butts handed to them, were declined and never tried again.

Seen this too,
but on the other hand we have frequent and good contributors that do not appear in the forums at all, or only very scarcely.
There will always be users that get discouraged, if their first attempt gets declined, for whatever reason. We can only try to keep our "No"-votes as polite and helpful as possible. But many first timers don't even know how to check the status of their contributions (or they simply don't check), so it's possibly not the tone of the votes, but simply the fact that the contribution got declined that discourages.

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But some people give it an honest effort and get chased away.

Yupp,
and that indeed is sad,
when I see a promising new contributor, that makes errors, I try to contact him via PM and offer assistance. Quite often this gets accepted, sometimes it gets ignored. Those who accept usually continue contributing and sooner or later get their first contribution accepted. We can only help those that are willing to accept it, and this is probably a major task for us more experienced users. Offer help when needed and not simply vote something down.

Quote:
Not bad guidelines.  But isn't it really saying there's a problem over there and I'm just going to stick my head in the sand and ignore it?  What if you're really interested in the outcome of the discussion?

The problem is, that usually there's no "outcome" to be expected.
You may check, but only very scarcely find something that's worth reading, which, at least in my case, only raises the frustration.

Quote:
Should you just go away because some others have decided to have their own private war? Should potential improvements be drowned out by bad behavior?  A cynical person could even come to the conclusion that if someone is asking for an improvement you don't care for that you should just start a flame war so nothing can be accomplished.

This in fact might happen, but with a working moderation system (which we don't seem to have at the moment), shouldn't be too much of a problem.
The thing is that if you interfere, trying to force the thread back onto topic, you are becoming (as I learned the hard way) a part of the problem, not of the solution. I try to keep moderation to the mods, not always successful, but at least I try. (Ah, how pathetic  )

Quote:
Rather than ignore problems, I'm saying those problem need to be stopped by whatever means necessary.  I don't care how Invelos chooses to put an end to the problems.  I just want it done so I can have a reasonable discussion.

Even though I personally am not really fond of the idea, probably it's best if Invelos would take the "banhammer", which was introduced by Ken, out of the shelve and use it. Only for a limited time for a start (let's say three month), where any inappropriate posting (a posting that got 2 red arrows, or more) will result in a 24h ban.
This will at least clean out the forums for a while.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorruineddaydreams
Registered: Dec. 2, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,318
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firstly i think it's pretty sad that there has to be drama about how we will reduce drama... in the past i have varied from very active here to borderline lurker and a big reason is that I have participated in the all out arguments on here and no longer wish to exhaust that energy in this forum. The software is amazing, I still contribute when I can, and I recommend it to anyone I think might enjoy. I will buy the iApp and POP if that ever comes out... but I can not get into the forums so I lurk.

It seems clear to me that the moderation is not frequent enough or harsh enough... moderators already leave a red mark when they edit, why not the same when they ban or temp ban... it makes people think twice... they also need to just go ahead and issue bans in some standard order instead of basing it on their judgment...  for example... if a user was moderated 3 times that is an automatic 1 day ban, if within x amount of time from their reinstatement they get moderated again, 2 day ban... etc etc... because leaving it up to judgment doesn't work... it's like a death penalty trial... many jurors think the criminal is guilty but don't have it in them to go all the way, so they do life instead... same thing here, moderators are moderating, but not banning. banning some troll who spams is easy... temp banning a long time user is much harder... but as an example...

just out of curiosity i noticed the same user being moderated several times, so i went back into their forum posts only and counted that they have been moderated 12 times in the last 14 days... in that time there was never any gap in posting for more than a good nights sleep, which leads me to believe that this user was never temp banned even for one day. if it is ok for someone to get moderated that often without a ban, the system does not work.
-JoN
 Last edited: by ruineddaydreams
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMark Harrison
I like IMDB
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 3,308
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:

The thing is that if you interfere, trying to force the thread back onto topic, you are becoming (as I learned the hard way) a part of the problem, not of the solution. I try to keep moderation to the mods, not always successful, but at least I try. (Ah, how pathetic  )


If I'm truly interested I do my best to carry on the conversation and ignore the fighting.  I don't attempt to get the thread back on track.  That's up to the moderators.  And don't miss the "do my best" part. Meaning sometimes I get sucked in regardless of my intentions.

And of course there are times when it's just a hot topic and a lot of posts don't necessarily mean a fight has broken out.  Not that I could come up with any real life examples! Just in theory.

As for the rest of your post... 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKulju
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I think it would be nice if we could see invidual rating on each post, how many red and green arrows has been casted by the community. That would make people think a bit more before they write and also show us how the readers feel, what is acceptable and what isn't.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkahless
TaH pagh taHbe'!
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 15,457
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Quoting Kulju:
Quote:
I think it would be nice if we could see invidual rating on each post, how many red and green arrows has been casted by the community. That would make people think a bit more before they write and also show us how the readers feel, what is acceptable and what isn't.


This could be considered as a kind of pillory and could prevent users from posting open minded. I think a total scoring value would be a better solution.
Thorsten
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