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Common name for Patrick M. Sullivan Jr. / Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. / Patrick Sullivan
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
Registered: May 29, 2007
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I often refer back to a post Ken made in the Men in Black thread: http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=667247&messageID=2082773.

The relevant section I have quoted here:

"One-off rulings on individual titles are a waste of time - there is always a new twist available to cast a slightly different shade of gray, and users cannot be expected to scour the forums on a title-by-title basis.  Similarly, refining and complicating the rules to satisfactorily contain each of these new variants is an exercise in futility.

Local databases can support an infinite variety of variants for title and other fields, and the local locks are available to make those changes permanent.  With this in mind, hopefully the supporters on both sides of this and other similar debates can agree that the direction of a decision here is less important that the fact of a decision.  Consistency for submission to the online is possible and what we should shoot for.  Agreement on how it "should be" is neither possible nor (thankfully) necessary."

Rules will never, ever cover every situation. And, individual rulings are, in Ken's opinion, a waste of time.

Consistency for submissions is what we should strive for and these threads, and the resulting decisions made in them, is following Ken's expressed opinion on how things should be done.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
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Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
For what it is worth when I was asked to post this in the rules forum the results were 4-2 in favor of combining counts of the filter cases http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=735451

Not that 4-2 is a clear consensus.  Many do not have access to that forum, and I would suspect only  those that care about common names and have access voted.


I put up a poll and a thread in this forum ( http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=750488 ).  It might be best to discuss this there instead of a common name thread
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
No where in the rules does it state to combine any auto-filtered names together as a common name.

To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.

so per the rule Patrick Sullivan in a tie but with the most profiles is the common name.

until there is a ruling from higher up, any personal thoughts on the issue mean nothing.



Nor is there in the rules on anything how we are to count titles.

We count TV seasons as 1 and we do not count fan/collective/anthology sets that have different titles, but the episodes are contained in a season set.  Unless I missed it, that is not in the rules or a ruling from Ken.  But is has been agreed to by many on this forum.

The simple fact is that since the filter forces two (or more in the initial cases)  different name variants to the same common name shows clear intent to me.



The simple fact is, that no matter what a filter does to the name the credited name is still the credited name. If we are going to combine them in a common name thread we might as well just change them in the profiles to what the filter changes them to and not even put the on-screen credit in the profile. To me combining them is the same as changing upper case none accented letters to lower case with accents.

the auto filters should be removed from the program, or the credited as should be removed from the program.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
No where in the rules does it state to combine any auto-filtered names together as a common name.

To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.

so per the rule Patrick Sullivan in a tie but with the most profiles is the common name.

until there is a ruling from higher up, any personal thoughts on the issue mean nothing.



Nor is there in the rules on anything how we are to count titles.

We count TV seasons as 1 and we do not count fan/collective/anthology sets that have different titles, but the episodes are contained in a season set.  Unless I missed it, that is not in the rules or a ruling from Ken.  But is has been agreed to by many on this forum.

The simple fact is that since the filter forces two (or more in the initial cases)  different name variants to the same common name shows clear intent to me.



The simple fact is, that no matter what a filter does to the name the credited name is still the credited name. If we are going to combine them in a common name thread we might as well just change them in the profiles to what the filter changes them to and not even put the on-screen credit in the profile. To me combining them is the same as changing upper case none accented letters to lower case with accents.

the auto filters should be removed from the program, or the credited as should be removed from the program.


That seems a bit extreme. Properly determining the common name does not mean we trash the actual screen credit.  Combining the name variants that the filter effectively combines is no where close the accent issue.  This is about how we count to determine the common name.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
No where in the rules does it state to combine any auto-filtered names together as a common name.

To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.

so per the rule Patrick Sullivan in a tie but with the most profiles is the common name.

until there is a ruling from higher up, any personal thoughts on the issue mean nothing.



Nor is there in the rules on anything how we are to count titles.

We count TV seasons as 1 and we do not count fan/collective/anthology sets that have different titles, but the episodes are contained in a season set.  Unless I missed it, that is not in the rules or a ruling from Ken.  But is has been agreed to by many on this forum.

The simple fact is that since the filter forces two (or more in the initial cases)  different name variants to the same common name shows clear intent to me.



The simple fact is, that no matter what a filter does to the name the credited name is still the credited name. If we are going to combine them in a common name thread we might as well just change them in the profiles to what the filter changes them to and not even put the on-screen credit in the profile. To me combining them is the same as changing upper case none accented letters to lower case with accents.

the auto filters should be removed from the program, or the credited as should be removed from the program.


That seems a bit extreme. Properly determining the common name does not mean we trash the actual screen credit.  Combining the name variants that the filter effectively combines is no where close the accent issue.  This is about how we count to determine the common name.



In my opinion that is what people want to do by ignoring the actual screen credit count when it comes to the common name.
 Last edited: by ateo357
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
No where in the rules does it state to combine any auto-filtered names together as a common name.

To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.

so per the rule Patrick Sullivan in a tie but with the most profiles is the common name.

until there is a ruling from higher up, any personal thoughts on the issue mean nothing.



Nor is there in the rules on anything how we are to count titles.

We count TV seasons as 1 and we do not count fan/collective/anthology sets that have different titles, but the episodes are contained in a season set.  Unless I missed it, that is not in the rules or a ruling from Ken.  But is has been agreed to by many on this forum.

The simple fact is that since the filter forces two (or more in the initial cases)  different name variants to the same common name shows clear intent to me.



The simple fact is, that no matter what a filter does to the name the credited name is still the credited name. If we are going to combine them in a common name thread we might as well just change them in the profiles to what the filter changes them to and not even put the on-screen credit in the profile. To me combining them is the same as changing upper case none accented letters to lower case with accents.

the auto filters should be removed from the program, or the credited as should be removed from the program.


That seems a bit extreme. Properly determining the common name does not mean we trash the actual screen credit.  Combining the name variants that the filter effectively combines is no where close the accent issue.  This is about how we count to determine the common name.



In my opinion that is what people want to do by ignoring the actual screen credit count when it comes to the common name.


Well we will have to agree to disagree.  Because I don't see that realizing that multiple screen credits yielding the same common name because of the filter as ignoring the screen credit.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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Yes you are- Patrick Sullivan has 6 and the most profiles in the database, Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. has 6 with less profiles. And Patrick Sullivan Jr. with 3. So the most commonly credited form of his name is ignored because of the auto filter.

So any way you call it you are not using the most credited variant of his name for the common name.

If you want to include the forced common name the way you want to, then have the rules commitee rewrite the rule and have Ken approve it.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:

If you want to include the forced common name the way you want to, then have the rules commitee rewrite the rule and have Ken approve it.


Well if that is the case then you need to throw out the other ways we combine counts since those are not in the rules or any clarifications.

TV Series counting as 1
Multi -feature discs where the film within that mult-feature DBD/Blu-ray title are already counted
TV Complete series titles where the individual season is already there
TV Fan/collective/anthology sets where the episode is already in a counted season set.

All of those counting combinations were done by agreement in this forum and not in the rules or any clarification I can find.

We will just have to agree to disagree.  I personally don't see how having the counts take into consideration how the Invelos written auto filter changes the common name causes the ignoring the screen credit.  The Auto filter just enforces that for common name purposes they are the same common name name.  With that being caused by the Invelos written auto filter it seems to me to be the clear intent that they are the same names for common name purposes.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
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One point to make as far as common names and the points you are making.

If you have:

Quote:

Albert Smith = 3 Titles
Albert Smith Jr. = 4 titles
Albert Smith, Jr. = 2 Titles


So now you declare the common name as Albert Smith Jr.

But when you enter

Albert Smith Jr.[Albert Smith] the filter will change it to Albert Smith, Jr. [Albert Smith]
Albert Smith Jr.[Albert Smith, Jr.] the filter will change it to Albert Smith, Jr.
Albert Smith Jr. the filter will change it to Albert Smith, Jr. [Albert Smith Jr.]

So what you end up entering as the common name, will not be the common name.  The filter changes it by design.  Even though you delclare the common name to be Albert Smith Jr., it won't be in any profiles as Albert Smith Jr..

The fact that the Invelos filter enforces a change to the common name tells me that Invelos considers these types of name variants to be equivalent for the purpose of the common name.  The filter only handles a few cases for initials and Jr./Sr. cases.  If Invelos considers the name variants to be equivalent then it seems for consistency we should be treating them as equivalent names for the purposes of counting to determine the common name.  But that does not alter the fact that actual screen credits should be entered.  The screen credit is not in question, just the method of counting to determine the common name.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorSwissFilm
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I agree fully. Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. and Patrick M. Sullivan Jr. is one common name Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. after the rules from invelos and therefore must be counted together. So in this case Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. is our common name.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributoremmeli
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wich rule?

the common name is the most credited name. and Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. is NOT EQUAL Patrick M. Sullivan Jr.

in German: ... Äpfel mit Birnen vergleichen ...


the real BirthYear OverView
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
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Quoting emmeli:
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wich rule?

the common name is the most credited name. and Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. is NOT EQUAL Patrick M. Sullivan Jr.

in German: ... Äpfel mit Birnen vergleichen ...



From this thread http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=750488

The rules just state to use the CLT and not how to count and the majority believe that since the filter will force Patrick M. Sullivan Jr. to become Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. that it shows a clear intention that Invelos sees/wants them as the same.  The simple fact is if you enter Patrick M. Sullivan Jr., it will not be loaded into the online that way and when it updates after approval your local will have Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr.[Patrick M. Sullivan Jr.] (a common name of Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr.)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributoremmeli
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this is a thread and not a rule ...

the rules can you found here.

and here what i have learned from you.

btw. the credits comes from the movie and not from a database which changes names. you use CLT to find the right common name? sure ... i see ... every day we got two or three new common name threads. if the CLT database correctly, we dont need any common name thread. and we take the credits from the movie to verify the correct name and not CLT. right?


the real BirthYear OverView
 Last edited: by emmeli
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMickySpoon
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Never mind, but Nitpickers rules the world, especially Germany. It's a very german nature and not curable. Please appreciate these slipover wearing office sitters. 
Si on n'a pas ce qu'on aime, on doit aimer, ce qu'on a !
 Last edited: by MickySpoon
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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Jersey Boys@2:09:43
SUPERVISING ART DIRECTOR  PATRICK M. SULLIVAN, JR.
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorninso4
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This is the common name thread for Art Director/Production Designer Patrick M. Sullivan Jr. / Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. / Patrick Sullivan
CLT:
"Patrick M. Sullivan Jr." is credited in the following 13 titles (161 profiles)
"Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr." is credited in the following 11 titles (186 profiles)
"Patrick Sullivan" is credited in the following 18 titles (221 profiles)

Patrick M. Sullivan Jr. (3 confirmed, 9 invalid):
An American Carol
Changeling
J. Edgar (confirmed by Lewis_Prothero)
Jersey Boys
The Kingdom (confirmed by Lewis_Prothero)
The Last Airbender
Memoirs of a Geisha
The Ring (confirmed by ateo357)
The Rundown
Trouble with the Curve
Wanted
The Weather Man

Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr. (7 confirmed, 3 invalid):
Behind the Candelabra (confirmed by Discostu)
Changeling (confirmed by ateo357)
J. Edgar
Jersey Boys (confirmed by AiAustria)
The Kingdom
The Last Airbender (confirmed by ateo357)
Memoirs of a Geisha (confirmed by Lewis_Prothero)
The Ring
Trouble with the Curve (confirmed by ninso4)
Winnie the Pooh (confirmed by ninso4)

Patrick Sullivan (6 confirmed):
An American Carol (confirmed by ateo357)
Divergent (confirmed by emmeli)
Hereafter (confirmed by ninso4)
The Rundown (confirmed by emmeli)
Wanted (confirmed by Lewis_Prothero)
The Weather Man (confirmed by emmeli)

Other Patrick Sullivans:
Miami Vice: Season 2
Speaking of the Devil
Pariah
Virgil Bliss
Zouxiang Gongte

For now, the common name is Patrick M. Sullivan, Jr.
Think different

Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
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