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Counting titles/profiles for common names and how the auto filter affects the common name.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
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Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
Quote:
Trying to track common names that go against the auto-filter is meaningless...

The problem is : are we allowed to contribute against the rules when we get stupid/inconsistent/incorrect data?

I would love to say yes, but unfortunately  the community said quite always that we must prefer stupid data rather than interpret rules, using our brain. Why would we change that in the case of this thread ?  And if we change in this case, why not in others ?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
Registered: May 29, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
Quote:
Trying to track common names that go against the auto-filter is meaningless...

The problem is : are we allowed to contribute against the rules when we get stupid/inconsistent/incorrect data?


The problem is this issue is not addressed in the rules. Therefore it can not be against the rules.

Ken has discussed how the community should tackle these off rulings and that is what this thread is attempting to accomplish.

Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
I would love to say yes, but unfortunately  the community said quite always that we must prefer stupid data rather than interpret rules, using our brain. Why would we change that in the case of this thread ?  And if we change in this case, why not in others ?


Ken has ruled on your specific issue therefore it is a moot point and not relevant to the discussion at hand.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
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Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
The problem is this issue is not addressed in the rules. Therefore it can not be against the rules.

Of course, it is . Rules ask to take names exactly from credits, and use CLT results to find common name.

Some people are not satisfied by this and ask the possibility to alter CLT results in accordance with program filter actions. This thread is just a request to change existing rules.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantNo-way
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I agree with surfeur on this. Most new contributors will not read this thread or know what a filter is. New contributors will just read the rules (and that is where the answeres should be found. Not spread around everywhere.)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
Registered: May 29, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
The problem is this issue is not addressed in the rules. Therefore it can not be against the rules.

Of course, it is . Rules ask to take names exactly from credits, and use CLT results to find common name.

Some people are not satisfied by this and ask the possibility to alter CLT results in accordance with program filter actions. This thread is just a request to change existing rules.


You only included a small section of the rules. Birth Years, Common Names and CLT allow exceptions to be made to the "exactly as credited" rule.

Here is the rest of the rules which deal with Birth Years, Common Names and CLT:

"Take Crew Credits from the film credits only; list names exactly as they are in the credits. Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead.

Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name.

List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.

To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.

It is not necessary to document the source of the common name, outside the use of the CLT. If there is a dispute over whether the credit references the same person, documentation may be necessary. However, in most cases it is not required.".

Edit: I believe Ken discussed this topic in the forums but I can't recall which thread. I'll see if I can find the relevant posts.
 Last edited: by Kathy
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJMGuer
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As General Douglas MacArthur once said: "Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind"


You dont learn to walk by following rules. You learn by doing, and by falling over - Richard Branson




A wise old cowboy once said, "The problem with some people who know everything about something is that they can't learn nuthin' about anything." Made sense when he said it.



...never mind...carry on...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Rules ask to take names exactly from credits, and use CLT results to find common name.

Nowhere do the rules say we must use the "results" of the CLT, only that we are to use the CLT (in a fashion not spelled out in the rules) to aid in determining the common name.  That gives us some latitude in how to interpret the CLT's output.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
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Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Rules ask to take names exactly from credits, and use CLT results to find common name.

Nowhere do the rules say we must use the "results" of the CLT, only that we are to use the CLT (in a fashion not spelled out in the rules) to aid in determining the common name.  That gives us some latitude in how to interpret the CLT's output.

---------------


Are you f-ing serious.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Are you f-ing serious.

Your question violates forum etiquette, so I believe I'll decline to answer you.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
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Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Are you f-ing serious.

Your question violates forum etiquette, so I believe I'll decline to answer you.

---------------


... But you did (Kind of). 
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
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Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Rules ask to take names exactly from credits, and use CLT results to find common name.

Nowhere do the rules say we must use the "results" of the CLT, only that we are to use the CLT (in a fashion not spelled out in the rules) to aid in determining the common name.  That gives us some latitude in how to interpret the CLT's output.

---------------


Are you f-ing serious.



I believe he is

Quote:

To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.

It is not necessary to document the source of the common name, outside the use of the CLT. If there is a dispute over whether the credit references the same person, documentation may be necessary. However, in most cases it is not required.

The inclusion of CLT results in contribution notes is strongly desired but not required. Note: In the case of uncertainty, leaving this out may cause the contribution to be declined.



Typically when counting CLT titles manually people apply the same exact community standards that we use in common name threads (and are not part of the rules).
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
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Quoting JMGuer:
Quote:
As General Douglas MacArthur once said: "Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind"

You are right. We would have much less problems if we were allowed to use common sense in specific cases. Unfortunately, DVdProfiler is the world of stupid recopy of errors and blind use of rules (that are poorly designed). What I do not understand is the attitude of people who say others to be very strict (when they don't care), then try to violate rules to solve a problem that they want.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
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Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
The problem is this issue is not addressed in the rules. Therefore it can not be against the rules.

Of course, it is . Rules ask to take names exactly from credits, and use CLT results to find common name.

Some people are not satisfied by this and ask the possibility to alter CLT results in accordance with program filter actions. This thread is just a request to change existing rules.


You only included a small section of the rules. Birth Years, Common Names and CLT allow exceptions to be made to the "exactly as credited" rule.

Here is the rest of the rules which deal with Birth Years, Common Names and CLT:

"Take Crew Credits from the film credits only; list names exactly as they are in the credits. Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead.

Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name.

List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.

To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.

It is not necessary to document the source of the common name, outside the use of the CLT. If there is a dispute over whether the credit references the same person, documentation may be necessary. However, in most cases it is not required.".

Edit: I believe Ken discussed this topic in the forums but I can't recall which thread. I'll see if I can find the relevant posts.


Well, I had already read all this, but did not find anything about program filters... We have to use CLT results, and with common names thread, we may correct CLT results if we can prove that those results are wrong because contributors entered "not as credited" data, or mix data for different actors with same name. But when CLT reflects exactly credits for one actor, nothing in rules allows us to alter CLT results.
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 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
Registered: May 29, 2007
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:


Well, I had already read all this, but did not find anything about program filters... We have to use CLT results, and with common names thread, we may correct CLT results if we can prove that those results are wrong because contributors entered "not as credited" data, or mix data for different actors with same name. But when CLT reflects exactly credits for one actor, nothing in rules allows us to alter CLT results.


Although not directly addressing this specific issue, Ken has weighed in and said the CLT results can be altered. He also clarified that application of the Common Name does not change the CLT:

Quote:
The lookup tool is not to be blindly trusted, however it does outweigh other sources, including autographs.  The common name is not intended to always reflect the "real name", but the most commonly credited name. 

However, if a user documents errors in the database where the credit is not entered properly, that can and should be considered.  Better yet, correct the entries, assuming you own the discs in question, thereby correcting the lookup results.


Link to the original thread:
http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=219058&PageNum=1


Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
The CLT results do not change when the common name is updated.  The CLT uses the Credited As field only.

And, to answer the question, the number of movies is the more important number.


Link to the original thread:
http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=371084&PageNum=1

Post from Ken on page 2.
 Last edited: by Kathy
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
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@ Kathy

All what you quoted is about correcting CLT when it is based on incorrect (per rules) data. The object of this thread has nothing to do with that. It proposes to alter CLT results based on correct data, to match with a filter in the program. Nothing in what you quoted speaks of that filter. You just try to interpret things to obtain what you want. I'll probably not convince you, but I'll stop now this discussion since I explained clearly my point of view : nothing in rules allows to do what is proposed here.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
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Yves,

It is not my intent to convince anyone of anything. If I find information that helps the community reach a decision, I will post threads that I believe are relevant.

Since Ken's statements were posted in the "Collected Statements from Invelos on contribution discussions", and not the rules, I wanted to highlight them.

Ken has stated that rules will not cover every issue - interpretation is the only way those issues will end up being addressed. When that occurs there will never be complete agreement. The goal, as Ken has stated, is to reach a consensus.
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