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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1  Previous   Next
BY handling by DVD Profiler
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Profiling since 2004
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 5,704
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Currently the programm does some logic, when importing and merging birth years (cast and crew are handled equally, so I omit theese words and call them persons for this post, but every thing said is valid for both of them):

• If there is a person in the local db without a BY and an update (regardless if it is downloaded from the online database or copied in using cut'n'paste) brings a person with the same name and a birth year, then the local person gets the imported BY. The person without the BY is replaced by the person with the BY!
• If there is a person in the local db with a BY and no other person sharing the same name in the local data base and an update (regardless if it is downloaded from the online database or copied in using cut'n'paste) brings a person with the same name and another birth year, then the local person gets the imported BY. The BY is overwritten by the new one!
• If there is a person in the local db with a BY and no other person sharing the same name without a BY is in the local data base and an update (regardless if it is downloaded from the online database or copied in using cut'n'paste) brings a person with the same name without a birth year, then the new imported person gets the locally stored BY. The entry without a birth year does not get created!

- These BY logics alters the birth yeas for all appearances of the person in the local data base (it touches each and every profile, in which the person appears)!
- Please don't beat me, if one of the above rules is not exactly described as it works, but you understand the harm caused...

This behaviour was meant to make the propagation of birth years easier - back then, when they were invented and each and every BY in the local data bases was set to 0000, it might have been a good idea to make the guess that the newly imported BY is valid for most of the local entries...

But today this seems to be a rather awkward breeding ground for invalid and wrong BYs. Each and every time an import to a well maintained data base is done, the user has to check each and every imported BY and check how it was translated to the local data base... rather time consuming.

I'd propose to terminate all theese logics, which are performed when importing birth years. A data set should be imported as it was published in the online data base witout changeing any other data in the local data base!

What does the community think about this issue?
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
 Last edited: by AiAustria
Invelos Software, Inc. RepresentativeKen Cole
Invelos Software
Registered: March 10, 2007
United States Posts: 4,282
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Existing birth years in a local collection are never changed. If a new profile has a different birth year, the program does not assume they're the same person, and keeps both of them.
Invelos Software, Inc. Representative
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Profiling since 2004
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 5,704
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I removed my second statement, because I can't prove it - For the other points the program behaves as described in my initial post.

Checked today with cut'n'paste and found it works the same as the download - which i know for a very long time - and yes, each and every time I get updates from the online db, I check and correct my BYs afterwards.

Please recheck this; if this behaviour is unintended, let's call it a bug (not a feature) and correct it; the correction was my initial intent
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
 Last edited: by AiAustria
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 8,667
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Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
If a new profile has a different birth year, the program does not assume they're the same person, and keeps both of them.

Except if the current local entry has no birth year. That's "different", too, but the program than does assume they're the same person, even when that isn't the case (more often than you'd think), doesn't keep both of them, but instead merges them into one entry - with the birth year attached.

Having spent huge amounts of research (time) to keep same- or similarly-named people's credits separate in my database, this behaviour is one of the reasons that I never accept any cast/crew updates this way. Any changes that need to be done, I'm copying into my database locally. If the program didn't automatically merge "John Doe (no birth year)" with "John Doe (with birth year)" into one entry, I wouldn't have to do that. So yeah, I'd very much like to see that behaviour changed.
 Last edited: by T!M
Invelos Software, Inc. RepresentativeKen Cole
Invelos Software
Registered: March 10, 2007
United States Posts: 4,282
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
If a new profile has a different birth year, the program does not assume they're the same person, and keeps both of them.

Except if the current local entry has no birth year. The program than does assume they're the same person, even when that isn't the case (more often than you'd think), doesn't keep both of them, but instead merges them into one entry - with the birth year attached.


You missed this part: Existing birth years in a local collection are never changed.  The quoted statement applies only to existing birth years, not entries without a birth year.
Invelos Software, Inc. Representative
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 8,667
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Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
You missed this part: Existing birth years in a local collection are never changed.  The quoted statement applies only to existing birth years, not entries without a birth year.

I didn't miss it...    I'm well aware that *existing* birth years aren't touched. I was just pointing out what I feel is the real problem here - which is that "John Doe (no birth year)" with "John Doe (with birth year)" are automatically merged together into one entry, without asking the user whether he wants to have that happen.

If you look closely, this is actually also what AiAustria was talking about. He's not complaining about DVD Profiler changing existing birth years - instead it's all about "the person without the BY" that isn't kept, as it's being merged with the entry of the same name that *does* have a BY. Most users aren't aware that you need to use (loads of) fake birth years in your local database, just to ensure that those people aren't merged together with their namesakes which do have a known birth year.
 Last edited: by T!M
Invelos Software, Inc. RepresentativeKen Cole
Invelos Software
Registered: March 10, 2007
United States Posts: 4,282
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Yep, just making sure what I posted was clear in how it describes the current functionality.  As long as we only accept birth years that are necessary, everything should work correctly for user downloads 99% of the time.  However, I'm not closed to the option of changing this behavior, especially as an option.
Invelos Software, Inc. Representative
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Profiling since 2004
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 5,704
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Except if the current local entry has no birth year. That's "different", too, but the program than does assume they're the same person, even when that isn't the case (more often than you'd think), doesn't keep both of them, but instead merges them into one entry - with the birth year attached.

... at least the same potention of annoiance reveals the other way round: If a newly updates profile has a already existing BY locally, then the comparison shows the existing BY on the left and the deleted BY (blank) on the right side. But after importing the BY is still in the local database...
Quote:
Having spent huge amounts of research (time) to keep same- or similarly-named people's credits separate in my database, this behaviour is one of the reasons that I never accept any cast/crew updates this way. Any changes that need to be done, I'm copying into my database locally. If the program didn't automatically merge "John Doe (no birth year)" with "John Doe (with birth year)" into one entry, I wouldn't have to do that. So yeah, I'd very much like to see that behaviour changed.

This is only half the way. When you download a new profile from the online data base, the same behaviour is shown. This means, if you download the region 1 profiles for The X-Files - just to see what's wrong with them - your local data base is blown. This costs about two hours extra to recheck each and every BY used (valid or invalid) in any of the attached profiles 

And no, you can't copy back the correct profile with Copy and Paste from an older Backup, because this shows the same behavior a third time!!
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 8,667
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Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
I'm not closed to the option of changing this behavior, especially as an option.

If, when downloading an updated set of cast and crew, the system could alert us somehow that a birth year is being added to an existing cast/crew entry that didn't have one before, that would be great.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Profiling since 2004
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 5,704
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Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
As long as we only accept birth years that are necessary, everything should work correctly for user downloads 99% of the time.

- 99% is very far away from reality!! - I'd tend to something about 60 to 80% for working correctly AND less than 20% where this logic helps (today in a database with maintained BY fields).
- We don't live in the perfect world, where no invalid birth years are in the data base - can you imagine what I felt after downloading The X-Files profiles...
- With the current system, Updates which are shown in the comparison overview are aplied in another manner than shown. Some of the updates are simply ignored (deletion of BYs) and others change profiles not shown or even mentioned (initial addition of BYs).
- If a tidy user cleans his data base on a regularly schedule, then he deletes unused cast and crew entries - what an idiot! This makes it much more likely to fail, since the behaviour gets triggered, when there is a name with only one BY entry (empty or filled). - Yes, I stopped cleaning the cast and crew data bases and I even add unused entries, when I create BYs, to avoid this update logic...
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Profiling since 2004
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 5,704
Posted:
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.
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
 Last edited: by AiAustria
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 8,667
Posted:
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Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
This means, if you download the region 1 profiles for The X-Files - just to see what's wrong with them - your local data base is blown. This costs about two hours extra to recheck each and every BY used (valid or invalid) in any of the attached profiles 

True. There are certain birth years that were once, inadvertently, accepted into the database, have later been proven false or unneeded, but still keep popping up. No matter how many times you remove them, every time you download a new profile, you run the risk of getting them back. I very much recognize the annoying constant re-checking after downloading a few new profiles.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
Profiling since 2004
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Austria Posts: 5,704
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Some more oddities around this:

• If you have a profile using the same name twice, one time with a BY and one time without a BY, both entries are matched together and have the same BY!
• If there are two persons in the local db with different BYs and no other person sharing the same name without a BY is in the local data base and an update brings a person with the same name without a birth year, then the new imported person gets one of the locally stored BYs - I assume the smaller/elder one. The entry without a birth year does not get created!
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorSwissFilm
www.filmkino.ch
Registered: May 16, 2010
Reputation: Superior Rating
Switzerland Posts: 516
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Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
Existing birth years in a local collection are never changed. If a new profile has a different birth year, the program does not assume they're the same person, and keeps both of them.


Hi Ken

But when I have a person with a forbidden by, so local no BY and I load a profile from the database where the BY is still in, then it changes me for all to the one with BY, I then have suddenly instead of 40 without BY and one with the BY, the imported, all with the BY again. Why does it not leave the 40 without the BY and opens only for this profile one with BY, why are all changed instead of only the import?

Fritz
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3D TV Panasonic TX-P65VT30J + Blu-ray Player Panasonic DMP-BDT500
My Filmcollection online: www.filmkino.ch
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