Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Vol N + Box "Box Set Contents" poll
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
This is a followup on the poll on the base profile for Vol N + Box combos.  The previous poll has closed, and the agreement is that the Box should be entered as the base profile as a Box Set Profile, with the volume included with it as a child profile.  This poll is for determining how the Box Set Contents should be constructed.


At issue: "Vol 1 + Box" releases are sold as a sort of "starter set" for a complete box set, but only including one volume of the series (usually the first).

The current question is: Should the Box profile contain (as Box Set Contents) only the volume included with the box, or should all subsequent volumes be added to the Box Set Contents of the Box profile as they become available?

[Note: Edited question for clarity.]

This poll will be open for 1 week from April 5 (so intended to close April 12), and will require a statistically differentiable vote to be considered closed.

I will begin the discussion in the follow-up post.
 Last edited: by Kinematics
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
I made this poll as an intermediary before deciding on how much of the remaining series info should be included, since that would depend somewhat on which choice is made here.  I'm less convinced there's a 'best' answer here, but will try to work out which I think will be better.


If only the volume that comes with the box is included, additional volumes can be added by the user locally, but shouldn't be contributed.  Within the database, it would represent the related profiles of what was originally purchased.  If we go this way, it would seem illogical to include the entire series information on the box profile.

If we include all the discs that are intended to go in the box set, updating the box profile as new releases are entered into the database, it will, in the end, represent the relationship of all the discs for the series to each other.  However when only 4 discs out of 7 are in the database, it won't accurately represent either the initial or final state of the box set, and will need to be continually updated.

If all the discs are included within the box profile, adding additional discs to the same category listing (owned/ordered/wishlist) will automatically associate them together.  That may or may not be what most people want.  Also, it won't be as immediately apparant that box+1 is different from box+entire set.

Whichever version is selected, that would be what it has when downloaded to a user database.  Since Box Set Contents are automatically locked locally, if they change over time (are updated as new volumes come out), those changes will not propogate to users that already have the box profile in their local database, and they would need to update their local version regardless of which method is used.


Personally, while I think I would prefer to have the entire set contained as children of the box profile for local reference, I think structurally within the main database it would probably be better to include only the first volume as a child profile.

If only the first volume is included as box set contents, no note needs to be made within the Extras section that it comes with volume 1 (leaving more space for other extras).  It will be structurally distinct from a "collected" edition.

I would most likely recommend that if only volume 1 is included with the box profile, either no cast/crew information be included, or only cast/crew from the first volume (which would at least get us the majority of the main characters and director, etc), but not cast/crew from the entire series.

If all volumes are to be included, the entire series credits would need to be carried over from the child profiles, just like collected TV series.


And finally, if the program is ever updated to automatically download child profiles with the parent profile, how this is entered will affect what gets downloaded.  Technically, the only thing that is guaranteed to come with the box is the volume it came with, so it seems more appropriate to only download that volume data on an automatic basis.  Other volumes could then be added manually if/when the user acquires them.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Kinematics:
Quote:
This is a followup on the poll on the base profile for Vol N + Box combos.  The previous poll has closed, and the agreement is that the Box should be entered as the base profile as a Box Set Profile, with the volume included with it as a child profile.  This poll is for determining how the Box Set Contents should be constructed.


The current question is: Should the Box profile contain (as Box Set Contents) only the volume included with the box, or all volumes that are intended to go with the box?


This poll will be open for 1 week from April 5 (so intended to close April 12), and will require a statistically differentiable vote to be considered closed.

I will begin the discussion in the follow-up post.



You need to modify the first choice.  These things are sold as "starter sets."  So, maybe word it like this?:  Should the boxset profile contain the first volume with subsequent volumes added as they become available?

I would say Yes to that because it is more descriptive of the actual process.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKinematics
Registered: March 16, 2007
United States Posts: 280
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Hmm.. Yes, that would be better wording.  Unfortunately I can't change the poll options after posting, so I'll create a fresh one.

Actually, let me just try modifying the first post..
 Last edited: by Kinematics
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
I agree that the most logical choice is only have the volume/s included with the box on the online Db and let people add them locally if they wish, as they would have to do it anyway due to locking of contents.

Also, as you say, if the way it is handled in future changes there is the risk of additional profiles being added to a users local Db as happened with 2.x a while ago. (The main reason I am opposed to it, as I had to manually remove a number of additional children before they changed it)
 Last edited: by Blueloopstah
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantTheFly
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 103
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
My opinion is that the profile in the online database should represent only what you get if you buy the product, not what you might choose to add in the future via additional purchases. On that basis, including only the volume(s) included with the box as a child profile seems the best option.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheFly:
Quote:
My opinion is that the profile in the online database should represent only what you get if you buy the product, not what you might choose to add in the future via additional purchases. On that basis, including only the volume(s) included with the box as a child profile seems the best option.


How then do you justify the fact that most retailers call these things "starter sets?"  It is painfully obvious that they are meant to house the entire set of discs in that series.

If you want the profile to represent 'only' what you bought, nobody is forcing you to add the rest of discs in that set to the main profile.  Why then do you want to restrict others, via the rules, from being able to add them if that's their choice?
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:


If you want the profile to represent 'only' what you bought, nobody is forcing you to add the rest of discs in that set to the main profile.  Why then do you want to restrict others, via the rules, from being able to add them if that's their choice?


Nobody is stopping anybody adding anything they want to the starter sets in their Local Db.

If only the included volume is a child on the online Db then this allows people who want the extra volumes as children to add them if they wish and those who don't want them as children to just carry on as normal.

You seem to be arguing against something that isn't happening?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantTheFly
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 103
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
If you want the profile to represent 'only' what you bought, nobody is forcing you to add the rest of discs in that set to the main profile.  Why then do you want to restrict others, via the rules, from being able to add them if that's their choice?


As Blueloopstah said, anyone who wants to add the other discs as children of the box in their local db are free to do so.

But surely the online database should represent data that is universally true for everyone who has purchased the product. The only volume(s) you can guarantee that everyone has is what was included with the box, so this is what should be stored in the profile online.

An interesting upcoming case in point will be The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzimiya from Bandai. The first volume LE will include a box. Subsequent volumes however will also come in two editions - a regular edition and an SE with an additional disc containing episodes in broadcast order. The assumption if someone purchases the Vol 1 LE + box may be that they will also get the other SEs, but because of the high price of the SEs I have seen many people say they will get Vol 1 LE + Vols 2-4 regular editions.

Following your preferred option of including the child profiles of all volumes with the box, which editions of the later volumes would you include? If you include the SEs, this will be wrong for those who buy the REs, and vice versa.

The only way to ensure the box data is universally correct (in this example and all other cases) is to only include the child profile of the volume(s) included with the box.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Blueloopstah:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:


If you want the profile to represent 'only' what you bought, nobody is forcing you to add the rest of discs in that set to the main profile.  Why then do you want to restrict others, via the rules, from being able to add them if that's their choice?


Nobody is stopping anybody adding anything they want to the starter sets in their Local Db.

If only the included volume is a child on the online Db then this allows people who want the extra volumes as children to add them if they wish and those who don't want them as children to just carry on as normal.

You seem to be arguing against something that isn't happening?


That poll up there says "Include ONLY the child for the box set that comes with the box."  That's what the rules will likely say if nobody calls you on this, and that is simply wrong.  If somebody sells a box that can hold six discs in keepers with just the first disc, and says "This is a starter kit for XYZ.  The rest of the set will be issued over the next year" it is clear that the box is intended to hold ALL the discs.  Which means that the second choice is the correct one, and the rules should reflect that.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Exactly, the same is true for the Funimation releases of Samurai 7, Negima!, Trinity Blood, Speedgrapher and Basilisk.

All had a LE vol 1 + box (except Samurai 7 that had 3 versions of Volume 7; vanilla, LE and +box) and then the rest of the series came in both LE and vanilla forms. Personally I bought the boxes, but I won't be buying the other LE's due to price and limited availabilty.

There is also the practical side of it for series still being released, having to update the online parent everytime a new volume comes out is just extra fuss, plus the fact a lot of series will have partial child lists for a lot of the time until the full run is out.

Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

That poll up there says "Include ONLY the child for the box set that comes with the box."  That's what the rules will likely say if nobody calls you on this, and that is simply wrong.  If somebody sells a box that can hold six discs in keepers with just the first disc, and says "This is a starter kit for XYZ.  The rest of the set will be issued over the next year" it is clear that the box is intended to hold ALL the discs.  Which means that the second choice is the correct one, and the rules should reflect that.


The rules only apply to the online Db and they always have, what a user does in their local Db is up to them. People can still add extra children to the parent locally just not upload the extra children to the online profile.
 Last edited: by Blueloopstah
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Blueloopstah:
Quote:
Exactly, the same is true for the Funimation releases of Samurai 7, Negima!, Trinity Blood, Speedgrapher and Basilisk.

All had a LE vol 1 + box (except Samurai 7 that had 3 versions of Volume 7; vanilla, LE and +box) and then the rest of the series came in both LE and vanilla forms. Personally I bought the boxes, but I won't be buying the other LE's due to price and limited availabilty.

There is also the practical side of it for series still being released, having to update the online parent everytime a new volume comes out is just extra fuss, plus the fact a lot of series will have partial child lists for a lot of the time until the full run is out.

Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

That poll up there says "Include ONLY the child for the box set that comes with the box."  That's what the rules will likely say if nobody calls you on this, and that is simply wrong.  If somebody sells a box that can hold six discs in keepers with just the first disc, and says "This is a starter kit for XYZ.  The rest of the set will be issued over the next year" it is clear that the box is intended to hold ALL the discs.  Which means that the second choice is the correct one, and the rules should reflect that.


The rules only apply to the online Db and they always have, what a user does in their local Db is up to them. People can still add extra children to the parent locally just not upload the extra children to the online profile.


What it looks like you're really objecting to is that you have to go back and spend a few seconds adding another child to the boxset.  And having a partially complete boxset is just fine (if it accurately reflects that there are only say, 4 out of 7, of the full set available.

You're also very naive if you think that someone isn't going to create a profile for the next disc that comes out.  Even if they do it as a standalone, somebody will grab it and add it to the boxset if its part of the group.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

You're also very naive if you think that someone isn't going to create a profile for the next disc that comes out.  Even if they do it as a standalone, somebody will grab it and add it to the boxset if its part of the group.


That's fine they can add whatever they want to the box set as long as they keep it LOCAL.

You seem to want to force additonal data that isn't relevant onto people.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Blueloopstah:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

You're also very naive if you think that someone isn't going to create a profile for the next disc that comes out.  Even if they do it as a standalone, somebody will grab it and add it to the boxset if its part of the group.


That's fine they can add whatever they want to the box set as long as they keep it LOCAL.

You seem to want to force additonal data that isn't relevant onto people.


Don't tell me it isn't relevant.  YOU think it isn't relevant.  A lot of people DO think its relevant, and they have every right to expect it to be available.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorBlueloopstah
Registered: March 18, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 55
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

Don't tell me it isn't relevant.  YOU think it isn't relevant.  A lot of people DO think its relevant, and they have every right to expect it to be available.


Don't tell me it is relevant. YOU think it is relevant. A lot of people DON'T think its relevant, and they have every right to expect it to be left out.

See, we could go on arguing about this all day. You don't agree with me, I don't agree with you.


Arguing isn't going to convince people to vote either way, evidence and reasoning will.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
prev. known as ya_shin
Registered: March 13, 2007
Taiwan, Province of China Posts: 3,401
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
We always keep profiles at the status of the origianl release. Re-releases are also a problem and cannot contributed and represented online. Why is this different, John?

Don't say because the manufacturer intended it that way. Manufacturers have no say in our database and if they had they's probably also prefer re-release data in the database than the original.
Achim [Ya-Shin//Nuo]
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative)
    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next