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  Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 ...8  Previous   Next
Discussion on Credited As field (Locked)
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Invelos Software, Inc. RepresentativeGerri Cole
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Registered: March 10, 2007
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Let's use this topic to talk about specific examples where the "credited as" comes into play, so that we can generate some rules for contributing and usage.

So far, the examples have been:

Courtney Cox Arquette -> Courtney Cox
Sam Jackson                -> Samuel L Jackson

What we are trying to decide is which name is the Master name and which name is the alias...

-Gerri
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantchibul
formerly abrg923
Registered: March 13, 2007
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My opinion is definitely that we use the "Credited As" to match the cast list for each movie PRECISELY. I believe that's what has been expressed by Ken as the intent.

So for someone like Courteney Cox-Arquette...do you all think it should be that, or Courteney Cox? (the Master Name)
"I am Andrew Ryan and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow?

No, says the man in Washington. It belongs to the poor.
No, says the man in the Vatican. It belongs to God.
No, says the man in Moscow. It belongs to everyone.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
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One thing that we need to think about, is it 'Toshiro Mifune' or 'Mifune Toshiro'?

We as a group need to come up with a standard that makes Ken, Gerri and at least some of the users happy.

pdf
Paul Francis
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Gerri,

Can we get specifics on problem that has plagued the previous version of DVDP for collectors of Asian movies. I am sure that you are aware that most Asians list their names Surname, Given name as opposed to western custom of Given name, Surname. With the prior version of the software and edict that we were supposed to use name as credited, we would often have to put in names backwards to meet this rule. However with the as credited option, it seems we no longer have to do this. Can we have an official policy that all "master name" respect Surname for the Last Name field and Given name for the First Name field (with Middle name field reserved for any western name or nickname lot of these Asian actors and actresses have)?

For example in western movies, Gong Li lists her name Given Name followed by Surname. Zhang Zi-yi lists her name Surname followed by Given Name.

In Chinese movies, Gong Li is credited as Li Gong and Zhang Zi-yi is still credited as Zhang Zi-yi.

I propose that for the master name, we list Gong Li as Gong (First name) and Li (Last name). She can be credited as Li Gong in Chinese movies and Gong Li in western movies where she is credited as such.

Zhang Zi-yi would be listed in the master name database as Zi-yi (First name) and Zhang (Last name). She can still be credited as in credits for both Chinese and western movies.

Same thing with Toshiro Mifune. His given name is Toshiro and surname is Mifune. In Japanese movies with Japanese credits, he is credited as Mifune Toshiro. We should respect his name in "master name" database by correctly linking his last name to surname and first name to given name. We can then correct as credited name to whatever it is on the screen.

Thank you.
My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
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Quoting chibul:
Quote:
My opinion is definitely that we use the "Credited As" to match the cast list for each movie PRECISELY. I believe that's what has been expressed by Ken as the intent.

So for someone like Courteney Cox-Arquette...do you all think it should be that, or Courteney Cox? (the Master Name)


I would say in this case use 'Courteney Cox', the name that she started with and the name she may go back to after the break-up (after all this is a Hollywood marriage).

I would say the same for 'Robin Wright' ('Penn').

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Paul Francis
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Director Jess Franco, sometimes credited as Jesus Franco.  Jess is the name that he's much better known under.
"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Gerri,

Can we get specifics on problem that has plagued the previous version of DVDP for collectors of Asian movies. I am sure that you are aware that most Asians list their names Surname, Given name as opposed to western custom of Given name, Surname. With the prior version of the software and edict that we were supposed to use name as credited, we would often have to put in names backwards to meet this rule. However with the as credited option, it seems we no longer have to do this. Can we have an official policy that all "master name" respect Surname for the Last Name field and Given name for the First Name field (with Middle name field reserved for any western name or nickname lot of these Asian actors and actresses have)?

For example in western movies, Gong Li lists her name Given Name followed by Surname. Zhang Zi-yi lists her name Surname followed by Given Name.

In Chinese movies, Gong Li is credited as Li Gong and Zhang Zi-yi is still credited as Zhang Zi-yi.

I propose that for the master name, we list Gong Li as Gong (First name) and Li (Last name). She can be credited as Li Gong in Chinese movies and Gong Li in western movies where she is credited as such.

Zhang Zi-yi would be listed in the master name database as Zi-yi (First name) and Zhang (Last name). She can still be credited as in credits for both Chinese and western movies.

Same thing with Toshiro Mifune. His given name is Toshiro and surname is Mifune. In Japanese movies with Japanese credits, he is credited as Mifune Toshiro. We should respect his name in "master name" database by correctly linking his last name to surname and first name to given name. We can then correct as credited name to whatever it is on the screen.

Thank you.


As before, my problem here is consistency for ALL users xrad. There is nothing consistent about the Asian (Oriental) naming conventions. Is it Lee Bruce, of course not. That said , I suspect your example of Gong Li (Master Name) and Li Gong-Credited As.

I am not 100% certain that all the people you refer to are as you BELIEVE them to be, you likely don't know them on any level other than through their film work. It's easy to make assumptions on some basis or other, but if I have learned anything assumptions all too often will lead down a blind alley. I don't like to make assumptions about people I have no first hand knowledge of or even a passing acquaintance.

Skip
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Billy Video
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Skip,

I think we all know your points of view. Can we try to get some other opinions on this matter. It may not effect your collection, but half my 1500 DVDs consists of these movies where credits are mainly in Asian language in traditional Asian order with no English anywhere to be found.
My Home Theater
 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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The for that half of your collection you would follow traditional Asian order, back to you Unicode question. 

Sheesh, yes I gave my thought s on the matter, but I also gave you what I think I am understanding Gerri's instruction to be. Just can't please some people.

Skip
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Billy Video
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
As before, my problem here is consistency for ALL users xrad. There is nothing consistent about the Asian (Oriental) naming conventions.

There's nothing consistent about naming conventions anywhere actually. I think we need to plan for what's frequent while allowing for exceptions as they come up.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
I am not 100% certain that all the people you refer to are as you BELIEVE them to be, you likely don't know them on any level other than through their film work. It's easy to make assumptions on some basis or other, but if I have learned anything assumptions all too often will lead down a blind alley. I don't like to make assumptions about people I have no first hand knowledge of or even a passing acquaintance.

This program is for tracking data about people that most of us don't know personally. We can't have a requirement of first hand knowledge of those people who are in movie credits or we're not going to get anywhere.

Quoting xradman:
Quote:
It may not effect your collection, but half my 1500 DVDs consists of these movies where credits are mainly in Asian language in traditional Asian order with no English anywhere to be found.

I like your ideas and if you have 750 movies with Asian credits, I'd say you're definitely in a good spot to  know what's needed there.

As for the Courtney Cox Arquette example, something like 'first regular professional credit' could work. The disadvantage of using something like 'most frequent credit' is that if we start off with Courtney Cox as the master name, she could stay married and acting for a long enough time that CCA could become her most frequent credit. So better to start with the first credit, yet allow for exceptions (you know we'll find one) where someone is credited a Name A for one film and then uses Name B for the next 50 years.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
The for that half of your collection you would follow traditional Asian order, back to you Unicode question. 

The cool thing about his proposal is that the master name would use the first and last names based on that person's cultural norm yet the film credit would follow 'as credited'; hence, if there's a film credit that reverses the order of the master name, it's recorded 'as credited'. But the master name is correct to the individual's cultural naming convention. One master name per person (not one master name per half of the collection) with an 'as credited' variation if the order is reversed.
...James

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Robert De Niro is credited as Robrert DeNiro (no space) in Taxi Driver, and Robert Denero in The Wedding Party (what, do you just guess the spelling in some cases?) but in his other 479 flicks he is credited as Robert De Niro so although I believe Wedding Party was his first credited role Robert De Niro should be the master name, so going by their first credited name is not a good idea in some cases.

Agree 100% on Samuel L. Jackson (I say Sam Jackson, I get a response of who is that from "common" folks)

Courtney Cox Arquette, dunno on this one as she had a good career before the Arquette name so I could go either way on what name to give her as  master, although if forced to pick, I would pick Courtney Cox as the master name probably for the same reason I choose not to pick Denero for De Niro, she started out as Cox but did several projects as Cox before she married David Arquette.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
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Gerri,

I don't want to drag this out on the main forum and have Skip rattle on and on like he did on the old forum. I am a native Korean speaker and a big fan/collector of Korean and Hong Kong movies. I can help out with correcting Korean/Chinese actors with their names if you need it. I really think with the new program, we should make our best attempt to have the most accurate database that we can. I think this can be best achieved by people who are most directly affected by these changes, if not for R1 DVDs, then certainly for R3 Korean and Hong Kong DVDs.

Thank you
My Home Theater
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Quoting Deadman36g:
Quote:
so going by their first credited name is not a good idea in some cases.

My theory survived for 7 minutes.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
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Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting Deadman36g:
Quote:
so going by their first credited name is not a good idea in some cases.

My theory survived for 7 minutes.



It is definitely not a bad idea James, expect for the few exceptions, i.e. De Niro and I am sure there are others, let me take Lawrence Fishburne, for an example, he started his career being credited as Lawrence Fishburne III, then switched to Larry Fishburne for many years, but now is just Lawrence Fishburne, so as much a I hate to say it, it may be best to look at each actor on a case by case scenerio which would take away so much of my already precious time    , but I definitely like your theory

lol, if I had read your thread earlier you mentioned that exceptions would had to me made, so actually me and you are in total agreement.
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OOPS. Oh well

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Gerri,

I don't want to drag this out on the main forum and have Skip rattle on and on like he did on the old forum. I am a native Korean speaker and a big fan/collector of Korean and Hong Kong movies. I can help out with correcting Korean/Chinese actors with their names if you need it. I really think with the new program, we should make our best attempt to have the most accurate database that we can. I think this can be best achieved by people who are most directly affected by these changes, if not for R1 DVDs, then certainly for R3 Korean and Hong Kong DVDs.

Thank you


LOL, once again, you miss all the points so I won't waste my time. Most accurate database, hmmmm, depends on your perception of what accuracy MEANS. We have a lot of people who seem to believe they know more than the people who actually made the film. I won't diminish your perception of what accuracy means xrad, but don't you DARE try to diminsh mine...it is an equally valid point of view.

That said xrad, I have had the opportunity to see first hand the accuracy result for what you believe to be accurate. The end product is one of the absolutely least accurate and mistake filled databases I have ever seen, but I certainly understand where you are coming from.


Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
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