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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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| Author |
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| Registered: April 14, 2007 |  Posts: 415 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's a lot of work Skip. As long as you're sure your version is 100% correct.
I know I have not checked all my movies, but I plan to. Another check that can be made is in your personal cast/crew list when you see 2 very similar non-common names that should be one entry. I've just discovered that Arthur B. Rubinstein is typo'd to Rubenstein in 6 profiles (in the lookup tool). |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | jm: There will be occassional typos, but when I do a title it should be correct, I have been doing it for just a little while.  But I won't claim to be anything but human, and if you spot a mistake, let me know and i will fix it. That is my standing policy. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Rgio:
As you know I deal strictly with what I see ON THE SCREEN, EXACTLY as the Rules state. I do NOT add accents that aren't there, that would come under the Alias system and usage of Credited As. Sam,e is true of Capitalization. If parsing becomes a question, I will look for support in previous notes, if it'snot there.... As for (incredited) my position on that is also well known, Pre-July 2005 as Ken originally stated I would accept data as grandfathered, after July 2005, I would follow Ken's current stand rellative to potential removal or perhaps I migh make some rol;e mods, we'll have to wait and see on that.
The bottom line is IF the Rules are being followed, there should be no problems, if they aren't then I will try to get them there and I am very curious to discover whether or not Hollywood generates multiple credit screens for movies, but only YOU and others can tell me that. I look forward to learning that answer.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
With this in mind, I am going to begin modifying my procedures and I am going to spell it out here for everyone's cooperation in the effort. It requires an assumption on my part, one which I BELIEVE is correct, but recognize that it may NOT be, and in this is where I will need everyone's help as a team to make it work. IThe assumption is that Hollywood does not typically create multiple credit lists for international release and vice versa. So I will start checking my data against any versions of the same title that are extant in the database, and make corrections as necessary, this in an effort to begin to move towards a more accurate Alias table. If in ay given instance that this proves not to to be correct PLEASE let me know.
Skip Entering/altering the credits for a DVD that you do not own would be against the Rules. There is no way that you can verify that you are entering the cast and crew exactly as they appear in the credits. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hal:
Since you have no interest in trying to figure out how to solve the problems, and I have come up with an answer that may also prove educational to all concerned myself included. Please stay out of it. If you have something more productive to say other than your usual nasty attitude, I welcome it. We have a major problem and we are all aware of it, the question becomes how to fix it. I am willing to expend the time to do so, which is far more than I see you doing, sir.
I have already said that, I don't BELIEVE that Hollywood is doing multiple credit screens, that does not meant they aren't. If they are we will learn that, then it becomes a question of how MUCH they might be doing multi-creds, itf they are doing it widely then this idea will quickly become non-feasible, but it is an IDEA, again which is more than you have done or are likely to do, sir. I am dependent on users elsewhere to give me accurate information to be able to figure out if it is feasible or not..
And BTW Hal, you should really write NOVELS you are so good at fiction. There is nothing in the Rules to back up your claim. Even though I would basically agree with your premise, but we have a problem and it needs to be fixed. Somebody has to grab the bull by the horns and try to do something and as has happened before, that someone is me. <shrugs> Such is life.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Rgio:
As you know I deal strictly with what I see ON THE SCREEN, EXACTLY as the Rules state. I do NOT add accents that aren't there, that would come under the Alias system and usage of Credited As. Sam,e is true of Capitalization. If parsing becomes a question, I will look for support in previous notes, if it'snot there.... As for (incredited) my position on that is also well known, Pre-July 2005 as Ken originally stated I would accept data as grandfathered, after July 2005, I would follow Ken's current stand rellative to potential removal or perhaps I migh make some rol;e mods, we'll have to wait and see on that.
The bottom line is IF the Rules are being followed, there should be no problems, if they aren't then I will try to get them there and I am very curious to discover whether or not Hollywood generates multiple credit screens for movies, but only YOU and others can tell me that. I look forward to learning that answer.
Skip About accents and capitalisation: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead. About name parsing: there is no default parsing defined by the rules but the field names imply some purpose. About uncredited cast: there is no magic date for the Invelos database. All changes of uncredited cast (also removing them) have to be documented. About my user name: it is spelled RHo. |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
With this in mind, I am going to begin modifying my procedures and I am going to spell it out here for everyone's cooperation in the effort. It requires an assumption on my part, one which I BELIEVE is correct, but recognize that it may NOT be, and in this is where I will need everyone's help as a team to make it work. IThe assumption is that Hollywood does not typically create multiple credit lists for international release and vice versa. So I will start checking my data against any versions of the same title that are extant in the database, and make corrections as necessary, this in an effort to begin to move towards a more accurate Alias table. If in ay given instance that this proves not to to be correct PLEASE let me know.
Skip Hi Skip, I'm not sure whether it's more Augias or Sysiphos. But I think that this is one of the few ways that might really work. So good luck | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Hal:
Since you have no interest in trying to figure out how to solve the problems, and I have come up with an answer that may also prove educational to all concerned myself included. Please stay out of it. If you have something more productive to say other than your usual nasty attitude, I welcome it. We have a major problem and we are all aware of it, the question becomes how to fix it. I am willing to expend the time to do so, which is far more than I see you doing, sir.
I have already said that, I don't BELIEVE that Hollywood is doing multiple credit screens, that does not meant they aren't. If they are we will learn that, then it becomes a question of how MUCH they might be doing multi-creds, itf they are doing it widely then this idea will quickly become non-feasible, but it is an IDEA, again which is more than you have done or are likely to do, sir. I am dependent on users elsewhere to give me accurate information to be able to figure out if it is feasible or not..
And BTW Hal, you should really write NOVELS you are so good at fiction. There is nothing in the Rules to back up your claim. Even though I would basically agree with your premise, but we have a problem and it needs to be fixed. Somebody has to grab the bull by the horns and try to do something and as has happened before, that someone is me. <shrugs> Such is life.
Skip What you believe is irrrelevant, Skip. The Rules say to take the credits from the ending credits exactly as credited and in the order credited. If you do not own the DVD for the profile you are editing, then you cannot possibly follow those Rules you can only hope they are the same as yours, therefore making such a contribution would be a violation of the Rules. R2, R3 R4, etc are all perfectly capable of editing/validating their own data legitimately according to the Rules. And please stop telling me to stay out of discussions on these forums. Just who do you think you are? | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | It has been a frequent practice for HD DVD and BD profiles to add cast and crew while referencing the UPC of an SD profile as the source. They get accepted as such. Also, any updates that were propagated across localities and regions in this manner would (1) definitely improve the database since most profiles are full of junk and (2) vastly speed up the process toward getting a workable Invelos Credit Lookup tool. The problem with saying that the other regions and localities should update their own stuff is that many of these other profiles are sparsely owned. Until those few users update to 'as credited', the rest of us are forced to live with their garbage data affecting our counts in the Credit Lookup.  It's technically against the rules since you can't vouch that the credits from one release match every other release (and didn't we just see an example where a film actually changed it's credits from one release to the next by changing David Chappelle to Dave Chappelle). Even still, propagating 'as credited' data, even with the possibility of regional or re-release credit changes, would still have a net increase in quality of the names in the database by a gigantor percentage. Any serious look through the current data will demonstrate that. Perhaps Invelos could give us a time frame, perhaps six months or a year, where such propagations would be allowed. Thereafter, the rules of matching the DVD credits of each specific release would again be enforced. We would have a much better database if so. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
It has been a frequent practice for HD DVD and BD profiles to add cast and crew while referencing the UPC of an SD profile as the source. They get accepted as such. It's my understanding of that situation that the people doing this at least have both discs at hand and are still able to verify that what they are submitting is accurate - at least they should be! Although I agree that the database is a bit of a mess, I really don't like the idea of people changing profiles for DVDs they don't own. You can't guarantee that the disc they're changing was mastered from the same source as the one they own, especially for non-english speaking markets - even if it was a Hollywood film. So I've got to agree with Hal on this one, only submit info you can verify is accurate. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
It has been a frequent practice for HD DVD and BD profiles to add cast and crew while referencing the UPC of an SD profile as the source. They get accepted as such.
It's my understanding of that situation that the people doing this at least have both discs at hand and are still able to verify that what they are submitting is accurate - at least they should be! If they were verifying the data to the HD DVD or BD disc credits, they wouldn't need to reference another profile. Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Although I agree that the database is a bit of a mess, I really don't like the idea of people changing profiles for DVDs they don't own. You can't guarantee that the disc they're changing was mastered from the same source as the one they own, especially for non-english speaking markets - even if it was a Hollywood film.
So I've got to agree with Hal on this one, only submit info you can verify is accurate. Right now I think we're at about 5% 'as credited'. If we propagated that data to the other 95% for a specific time period and then reverted thereafter to only updating what we own, we'd be ahead. If we continue as we are, we're going to stay at about 5% IMO. Forever. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
The Rules say to take the credits from the ending credits exactly as credited and in the order credited.
As far as I know, contributions stating another profile as Source for Cast and Crew are constantly accepted by the Screeners. I guess they accept that because it is implied that, if you copy from the same movie, film credits will generally be the same, regardless of editions, and the ultimate source is the DVD anyway (provided the first profile was taken from film credits!). Quote:
If you do not own the DVD for the profile you are editing, then you cannot possibly follow those Rules you can only hope they are the same as yours, therefore making such a contribution would be a violation of the Rules.
Personally I have been contributing (and voting on) DVDs I can get my hands on, not anything else. I don't know if there is a rule on that, but that seemed to me the right thing to do. Nevertheless, now I wonder: if copied Cast and Crew lists are good enough to make it into Invelos db, how does actually owning the DVD make any difference? Quote:
R2, R3 R4, etc are all perfectly capable of editing/validating their own data legitimately according to the Rules.
Individually, yes we are.  Only problem, in some localities there are fewer keen contributors and lots of profiles with incomplete or "IMDBized" data. Corrections would take forever if we just wait for the natural course of events, so to speak! When I audit a DVD I own, I often happen to regret not having the possibility to correct obvious errors in other editions. I understand your objections in principle, still I think we should consider all the pros and cons. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
Nevertheless, now I wonder: if copied Cast and Crew lists are good enough to make it into Invelos db, how does actually owning the DVD make any difference?
Lots of things get into the Invelos database that shouldn't. Let's not pretend that just because it is accepted by the screeners that it's right. Regarding people who are doing BD or HD DVD profiles by copying casts from other profiles. Copying the cast and crew is a shortcut to get the profile built quickly, however, I would fully expect that the contributor owns said BD or HD DVD and would validate those credits against the DVD credits BEFORE actually submitting them. If not how can they possibly know if they are correct. They would simply be propagating bad data. It is also interesting to note that in past discussions about cast and crew for Pre-Releases, the majority, including Skip, stated that they could not be entered because the contributor did not have the DVD in hand to validate the cast and crew. But now all of a sudden it's OK to do it for DVDs in other regions. I'm beginning to believe that the current "linking" system is fatally flawed and that an entirely new solution is needed where we do not have to rely on a totally unreliable source. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 810 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
...
I'm beginning to believe that the current "linking" system is fatally flawed and that an entirely new solution is needed where we do not have to rely on a totally unreliable source. How is it flawed? Just because the linking name as picked by the 'credit lookup tool' is not the one you might use? The 'credited as' name is still the data that is displayed on the DVDProfiler screen, the linking name is just that, a linking name! pdf | | | Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA |
| | Registered: June 12, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,665 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Regarding people who are doing BD or HD DVD profiles by copying casts from other profiles. Copying the cast and crew is a shortcut to get the profile built quickly, however, I would fully expect that the contributor owns said BD or HD DVD and would validate those credits against the DVD credits BEFORE actually submitting them. If not how can they possibly know if they are correct. They would simply be propagating bad data. Bad data is being propagated. I've double dipped on a number of high def discs and found errors in the HD/BD profile that were fixed in the DVD profile after the HD/BD profile was released. This showed me that profiles were being propagated without being reviewed. And i've corrected DVD and HD/BD profiles simultaneously because the same error was found in both. | | | | Bad movie? You're soaking in it! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting pdf256: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
...
I'm beginning to believe that the current "linking" system is fatally flawed and that an entirely new solution is needed where we do not have to rely on a totally unreliable source.
How is it flawed? Just because the linking name as picked by the 'credit lookup tool' is not the one you might use? The 'credited as' name is still the data that is displayed on the DVDProfiler screen, the linking name is just that, a linking name!
pdf The whole concept of a single "linking" name is flawed. Add to that the fact the way to determine that "linking" name (using the lookup tool) is a useless waste of time if you are really supposed to be using the name under which someone is most commonly credited, then the entire concept is seriously flawed. As much as I hate to admit it, Skip's concept of setting up a "linking table" which allows you to link many to one and one to many is a much better way to go than what the current method has turned out to be. | | | | Hal |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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