Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Raiders of the lost ark contribution
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Iunderstand what you are saying, Darxon. The Notes are our bibliography, if you will, or appendix. And in that regard i disagree. If that bibliography does NOT reflect accurate references then the data itself is questionable...very simple. Suppose you were reading a book by some supposedly authoritative figure and discovered that his references in his bibliography were inaccurate or questionable, then his entire book becomes questionable along with his conclusions. That is what our Contribution Notes are for, and they should reflect as accurate information as we can provide, there are users now and in the future that may reference those notes for one reason or another and to not provide correct and accurate data in them is doing those users a severe disservice. Because of that view of our notes and what they ultimately do, then to do anything less than what I do would be both selfish and lazy in the extreme.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDarxon
Vescere bracis meis
Registered: March 14, 2007
Germany Posts: 742
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Skip, I agree with what you're saying regarding the significance of contribution notes for documentation of the data residing in the profile of a DVD.

BUT:

We are not casting votes on the contribution notes by pressing the "Yes", "No", "Neutral" buttons in the evaluation screen. Those votes are cast on the data that is submitted in the contribution, so a vote cast using these three buttons must be based on the correctness of the data submitted only, NOT the content and/or correctness of the accompanying notes.

You might have had a point (a weak one IMO, but surelyl debatable) until a few weeks ago when the reputation system was introduced, because since then, we have another tool, too:

For the contribution notes, we now can vote seperately by using the reputation votes by selecting the notes section in the evaluation screen of a profile. So, if you agree with the change in data, but disagree with the accompanying notes, you should really vote "Yes" on the data submitted and give a negative reputation vote for the contribution notes.

As the reputation votes for contribution notes can (and in case of negatives probably have to, I don't know for sure) be accompanied by explanatory notes, you'd be able to let the contributor know what you deem wrong and give him a chance to correct the notes (no guarantee, I know, but that's life in DVDP land  ) and still allow the correct data into the online db.

So, IMO, you can perfectly well achieve both: improve the database AND reprimand the contributor for failing to do a proper documentation.

Don't you think that's a better approach than your "No" vote against your own better knowledge and by that deteriorate the online db?

EDIT: I would not apply the above outlined approach to unsourced or obviously faultily sourced submissions unknown to be true, but the case at hand deals with notes deemed insufficient by some and sufficient by others AND the data in question has been verified by those demanding more detailed notes to be correct.
Lutz
 Last edited: by Darxon
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,033
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
Skip, I agree with what you're saying regarding the significance of contribution notes for documentation of the data residing in the profile of a DVD.

BUT:

We are not casting votes on the contribution notes by pressing the "Yes", "No", "Neutral" buttons in the evaluation screen. Those votes are cast on the data that is submitted in the contribution, so a vote cast using these three buttons must be based on the correctness of the data submitted only, NOT the content and/or correctness of the accompanying notes.

You might have had a point (a weak one IMO, but surelyl debatable) until a few weeks ago when the reputation system was introduced, because since then, we have another tool, too:

For the contribution notes, we now can vote seperately by using the reputation votes by selecting the notes section in the evaluation screen of a profile. So, if you agree with the change in data, but disagree with the accompanying notes, you should really vote "Yes" on the data submitted and give a negative reputation vote for the contribution notes.

As the reputation votes for contribution notes can (and in case of negatives probably have to, I don't know for sure) be accompanied by explanatory notes, you'd be able to let the contributor know what you deem wrong and give him a chance to correct the notes (no guarantee, I know, but that's life in DVDP land  ) and still allow the correct data into the online db.

So, IMO, you can perfectly well achieve both: improve the database AND reprimand the contributor for failing to do a proper documentation.

Don't you think that's a better approach than your "No" vote against your own better knowledge and by that deteriorate the online db?

EDIT: I would not apply the above outlined approach to unsourced or obviously faultily sourced submissions unknown to be true, but the case at hand deals with notes deemed insufficient by some and sufficient by others AND the data in question has been verified by those demanding more detailed notes to be correct.


The reputation system is not in place to voice disagreement to a post, but to voice that you think the post is rude, offensive, etc. giving a negative because someone didn't include proper documentation in their contribution is, at least imho, an invalid/unwarrented negative feedback.

[edit]
from Ken's initial post in the Announcment Forum on the Reputation System:
Quote:
system intended to reward positive helpful posts in our forums, and to deter negativity

[/edit]

The contribution notes are part of the contribution. If I submit a perfectly accurate change, that everyone and their brother knows to be correct and came directly from the case/disc, but don't give a source it should technically be voted no on because its an invalid contribution as there is no source for the information.

Additionaly, there is no comments for negative (or positive) reputation votes.

-Agrare
 Last edited: by Agrare
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Darxon:

Agrare has it right. And i hope you will forgive me for not going into it further. I am so angry I can't even see straight, right now.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 6,014
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Watch your blood pressure, Skip! Breathe deeply, go for a walk or perhaps... watch a DVD? 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,199
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
I have a right in this country to confront my accusers, and i will do so.


I feel I must correct this for the benefit of our users, who are not from this country, and might get confused. 

In the US, we do have a Constitutional right to face our accusers.  But, that is limited to the legal system.  It is not a right that carries over into everyday life.

If, for example, someone accuses me of robbing a gas station.  I have a right to face that person in court.  It is a right granted to me so that I can have a fair trial.

If, on the other hand, someone tells my wife that I was cheating on her.  I do not have the right to confront that person.  I am sure I would like to, but it is not a guaranteed right.  The same goes for these forums.

Thus ends our civics lesson for the day.  The next time we meet, we will be discussion 'Free Speach' and Internet Forums. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 6,014
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
One question, teacher: does having a right "in this country" - or any country, for that matter - also comprise the World Wide Web? 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,199
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
We are not casting votes on the contribution notes by pressing the "Yes", "No", "Neutral" buttons in the evaluation screen. Those votes are cast on the data that is submitted in the contribution, so a vote cast using these three buttons must be based on the correctness of the data submitted only, NOT the content and/or correctness of the accompanying notes.


This is exactly what the rules tell us to do.  From the rules:

If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate, and the contribution replaces data which is inaccurate or violates these Contribution Rules, a "No" vote is considered an abuse of the voting privilege and should be avoided when possible.

I don't see anything in there that says you have to like their sources.  If you know the "data is accurate, and the contribution replaces data which is inaccurate or violates (the) Contribution Rules, a "No" vote is considered an abuse of the voting privilege." 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,199
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting dee1959jay:
Quote:
One question, teacher: does having a right "in this country" - or any country, for that matter - also comprise the World Wide Web? 


I don't know about the World Wid Web, but the only rights we have in a forum are those rights given to us by the forum owner.

Does that answer your question?
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 6,014
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Sort of. Your earlier post contained the sentence "The same goes for these forums.", which made me wonder if appealing to any country's "rights" has any legal foundation.
 Last edited: by dee1959jay
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,033
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Darxon:
Quote:
We are not casting votes on the contribution notes by pressing the "Yes", "No", "Neutral" buttons in the evaluation screen. Those votes are cast on the data that is submitted in the contribution, so a vote cast using these three buttons must be based on the correctness of the data submitted only, NOT the content and/or correctness of the accompanying notes.


This is exactly what the rules tell us to do.  From the rules:

If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate, and the contribution replaces data which is inaccurate or violates these Contribution Rules, a "No" vote is considered an abuse of the voting privilege and should be avoided when possible.

I don't see anything in there that says you have to like their sources.  If you know the "data is accurate, and the contribution replaces data which is inaccurate or violates (the) Contribution Rules, a "No" vote is considered an abuse of the voting privilege." 



but the rules also have a whole section dedicated to contribution notes which sayss:

Quote:
When you contribute a changed profile, you are required to include Contribution Notes. Use the space to enter full explanations for all changes and/or additions that you make. Make special reference to any changes where:

    * You have verified there is a discrepancy between the box and the actual content of the DVD - include your verification method.
    * You are making a subtle change that may be hard to spot - for example spelling correction to the overview.
    * You are removing incorrect information.

Contribution Notes provide an explanation of your changes to other DVD Profiler users and Invelos for voting and deciding whether to accept your contribution, so make your notes useful and descriptive.


it also says in the before you contribute section:
Quote:
Read the prior Contribution Notes. They will give you information about contributions that other users have made. There are two specific things that you need to be particularly aware of:

    * Have other users verified discrepancies between the cover and the actual disc information? If so do not contribute the incorrect box information again.
    * Are there pending contributions from other users, which have yet to be evaluated by Invelos screeners? If so, you need to ensure that your contribution will not overwrite pending corrections with incorrect information again. Or are you duplicating the contribution that is pending, just contributing the same information again?


which to me means that the notes are part of the data you are contributing. and if the notes are not accurate and supportive of the information being contributed, A no vote is warrented. You cannot assume that people will know the data is accurate unless you provide them with sources saying so. Especially when dealing with name variation changes.

-Agrare

*edited to quote the post i meant to in the first place
 Last edited: by Agrare
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 6,014
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
What I'm reading in your quotes is that contribution notes do not in themselves constitute data (as in: data in a profile), but that they serve a supporting role in establishing the correctness of a contribution. Leaving out supportive documentation would thus make it more difficult to establish correctness of the contribution, nothing more, nothing less.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,033
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting dee1959jay:
Quote:
What I'm reading in your quotes is that contribution notes do not in themselves constitute data (as in: data in a profile), but that they serve a supporting role in establishing the correctness of a contribution. Leaving out supportive documentation would thus make it more difficult to establish correctness of the contribution, nothing more, nothing less.


sorry, I think my point may not have been clear cause I quoted the wrong post.

but they are a part of the contribution. If I leave them out (or put 'no notes' as the contribution notes since I don't think they can be blank) then everyone can, and should, vote no regardless of the correctness of the data I am changing/adding. Because buy the rules you must leave contribution notes when submitting a change.

Now i'll admit voting no because they were left out is different than voting no because you don't like their sources, but I don't think that it's an abuse of the voting privilege. If your sources don't convince me your contribution is correct, then I am well in my rights to vote no on it, even though it may in fact be accurate.

I feel that multiple, accurate sources should be required if the information is not directly from the disc/case because of the tendency that once that data is in the system, to remove it the burden of proof then falls on whoever trys to remove it, and if it is bad data this can be an impossible task (to prove a negative)

-Agrare
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantnoodleboy
Registered: January 7, 2008
United States Posts: 30
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Skip's point on the contribution notes is valid.  It does serve more of a purpose than just supporting the contribution.  That was the original intent, but the notes also help future contributors.  If, 2 years from now, somebody goes back to change Malcolm Weaver back to Malcom Weaver, they can look back at the contribution history and see the notes that Mikl submitted with his contribution.  The more data included to back up why he made the change, the easier it will be to see that changing it back is the wrong choice.  I have had several contributions where I have gone through the past submissions to see if there was a reason that some data was entered the way it was.  I looked at all of the contribution notes to verify that there was no reason for it.  Those notes can provide a lot of information and are very useful!  So, Skip's point is a good one.

On the other hand, I also feel that casting a "no" vote on good data, simply because the documentation isn't included in the contribution notes, but was dug up after the fact is a bad thing.  The number one priority should be the data.  It seems to me that a "yes" vote will help get the correct data in place.  A note with the vote, or a PM, requesting that extra documentation be added to the contribution notes would be perfectly acceptable.  If I received such a request, I would certainly add the extra documentation to my notes.  It only takes a moment to do so and will give that much more data to any future user who is researching why the data is the way it is.
 Last edited: by noodleboy
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,033
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
The one thing that concerns me though, is how are edited contribution notes handled after the profile is accepted. Based on the announcement when Ken first posted this change, it seems that only the original contribution note is kept. Can anyone confirm how the notes display on a contribution that has had its notes updated and been approved/released?

-Agrare
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantnoodleboy
Registered: January 7, 2008
United States Posts: 30
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Yes, the updated notes are kept.  You can see this by looking at the notes I submitted for 014381250923.
    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next