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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Dutch names, how to handle them? |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
What evidence can you offer that it should be P/BH
I don't think I can find any. But I don't think you can find any evidence to show that it should be P/B/H, too. That doesn't make either way of parsing better, or more "correct" than the other. You present "document it" as the answer to the problem, but it isn't. As I explained in my earlier message: it doesn't even matter which side I choose, either way I'll have to correct about ten profiles, and either way I'll get no-votes. So, despite that you might feel that everything is absolutely clear to you (just as I feel that everything is absolutely clear to me), the online database still remains a mess, with multiple entries for about EVERY name consisting af three or more parts. You can choose to stick your head in the sand because you fail to see the problem in your own database, but that doesn't make it any less of a serious problem.
Quote:
don't make an ASSumption
Once again, I feel it's kind of sad that you always have to resort to childish remarks like this...  I find it rather pathetic tht you have no sense of humor, Tim. or in your country do they not teach what Assume means. You make an Ass out out of U and Me. So don't make ASSumptions. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,667 |
| | | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,293 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Voltaire53:
Quote:
Simply following the DVDP method
Unfortunately, there IS no DVDP method. This is not defined in the rules at all, and that's why a fairly big part of the users doesn't work with that method, as this thread shows.
Fair point but if you pretend these aren't names and just apply the rules you'd apply normally: Cats are always feline First word is cats Last word is feline The words in the middle are 'are always' Why do we have to make it more complicated for names just because some countries actually have family names at a different end or whatever? It just seems logical to me that the easiest way to make sure linking is most effective is to have a simple rule anyone can understand and follow without going into background knowledge of the person involved... but again, I must still confess the Rules don't have any guidance or specifics on this so until they do we argue and the linking often stays broken. | | | | It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Voltaire53: Quote:
Cats are always feline
First word is cats
Last word is feline
The words in the middle are 'are always' Sure, that I agree with. But the field is called "middle name", not "words in the middle". I don't consider "Bonham" in Helena Bonham Carter as a "middle name", and various polls have shown that most people don't. Similarly, I don't consider "Baker" in Philip Baker Hall to be a "middle name". Having said that, I could actually support the inclusion of your proposal in the rules. I admit that I wouldn't like the results much, but hey: anything to get a standard. But I repeat that if we go that way, there shouldn't be ANY exceptions. If we're going to use such a rule, there should be no difference in treating Helena Bonham Carter, Philip Baker Hall or any other name consisting of more than two words. No special treatment for a couple of well-documented stars. The term "middle name" should then be removed from the software - maybe indeed call it "the words in the middle", haha. If we could agree on that, we'd have a system that would work, and we could get rid of all those redundant multiple entries for the same people. Personally, I'd still prefer simply dropping the middle name field, though. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | What you CONSIDER is totally irrelevant. Maybe you nbeed to do some work OUTSIDE of your own narrow minded cultural view of names. Bonham has been documented. Baker MAY be part of the last name, it MAY not be as well. And that is where I am telling you you are making an assumption which you cannot support, Tim. What's next do want to argue about Middle Initials after all the filed is labeled Middel Name, give me a break and get over it. AND stop trying toi apply your own narrow-minded approach, BTW for your information Philip baker Hall was born in Toledo, Ohio, USA and as i as isaid either answer is POSSIBLE.
You want to make it P//BH PROVE it otherwise can it.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Tim:
I don't want upset or insult you, But what I see you doing is droning on and on about your assumption and trying to say that because of Bonham then Baker. Each name is unique and there is no set Rule that can be applied to ALL, it is wholly dependent on the individual. There are any number of combinations which are possible, for all we know it could even be PB//H. But we have to START somewhere, and all the "default" does is make a starting choice that is NOT dependent on ANYONE's cultural proclivities or nationalistic tendencies, and if you can prove otherwise then go for it.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Skip, I don't want to upset or insult you, but I do not intend to keep explaining the same things to you over and over explain, while you keep disregarding them and rattle of your standard answer every time. If you're going to reply on my posts, then please read them first...
One last time, then: the bottom line is that nor the rules nor the software give us the "default" you're talking about - it's just your personal preference, just as my way of doing things is my personal preference, and other posters in this thread have theirs. Neither the rules nor the software indicate any "starting point" with regards to the parsing of names, and all I've been trying to say is that I'd welcome some standards in this department. I've made some suggestions, and I've also indicated that I'd be willing to accept a solution that I consider less than ideal, just for the sake of getting all users on the same page.
Again, if you want to dismiss all of that, and just go on the way we are now - fine by me. You go by your personal preference, I'll go by mine, and the database will stay a mess. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hi Tim,
I can understand your difficulties with the middle name field, but I have to admit, without merging all the name into one single field I can't see a way round it.
You suggest dropping the middle name field, but if we did how would you parse the name Philip Baker Hall? You'd still have to decide whether it was part of the last name or part of the first name so we'd still be having the same arguments.
I've done some brief searching and have been able to find very little about Philip Baker Hall's parentage or family history. The only hint I found was one interview referred to him as "Hall" which seems to suggest that his name should be parsed P/B/H.
I think the problem seems to be that cultures that are unfamiliar with the middle name concept seem to think that it's much more formal than it really is whereas it's not - it's simply a field where we put extra forenames. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Of course we have a default position, spelled out or not, We have THREE count them THREE fields. i believe the last time this ridiculous dicussion came up back at IVS, we came to the conclusion of using the default position unti proof is offered to the contrary. But that doesn't men anything because you don't bother to read things either and in 3 or 4 months this will al come up AGAIN and we will have the same ridiculous discussion AGAIN, some more and still.  In addition your position is based on cultural proclivities and or nationalistic issues, where the default position does not rely on that AT ALL. Tim, no user needs to be concerned with hoiw things are done in the US, France Germany or anywhere else. All users can satrt from the SAME point, and we can move from that point forwar. take your ego and nationalistic pride out of it, what definition would you use to ASSUME that Baker is a last name, how do YOU know whether George is a middle name or a surname(it could be either). There IS no way. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,704 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Of course we have a default position, spelled out or not, We have THREE count them THREE fields. I can't agree on that - this would bring us back to "cats are always felines" - And this does not apply in many cases (articles, titles, stage names, cultural background which influences the persons way to use his/her name, etc.). But: Isn't it irrelevant? - The major concern regarding the quality of our database should be to get any common name! - Why not start one single poll about such a naming problem and then use the result as a common sense ie. common name? I think we could get rid of tons of argues without really weakening the database quality - since this will only concern questionable - means unprovable - names... Regards, AA | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 813 |
| | Posted: | | | | There is no such thing as a "default" position in the rules or software as T!M (and others) have said.
The names should be parsed by the field names - first, middle and last names. If that parsing cannot be established through evidence then all that is left is guessing... ie a personal preference.
Skip's. and most peoples, guess/preference is to put the first word in the first field, the last in the last field and the rest in the middle (with the exception of prefixes etc.). I agree it is the "best" guess, but it is no more right per the the rules than any other parsing.
As it stands everyone can do whatever they like, and as T!M has said, it needs addressing imo. | | | Andy 
"Credited as" Names Database |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,704 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Bonham has been documented. Where? - Can we move that on to "common name thread"? Regards, AA | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't want to hear COMMON SENSE from this bunch any more from anybody, not as long as everybody refuses to display any. Also as I have noted Common Sense is purely subjective based on upbringing, personal environment and several other factors, in short your definition of what you believe is Common sense may not match mine or Tim's or anybody else, but to YOU it would be legitimate Common Sense.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Bonham has been documented.
Where? - Can we move that on to "common name thread"?
Regards, AA Just waiting for James to get back - he's travelling at the moment. Edit: and here is the link to the HBC discussion. | | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,704 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
I don't want to hear COMMON SENSE from this bunch any more from anybody, not as long as everybody refuses to display any. Also as I have noted Common Sense is purely subjective based on upbringing, personal environment and several other factors, in short your definition of what you believe is Common sense may not match mine or Tim's or anybody else, but to YOU it would be legitimate Common Sense.
Skip IMHO "common sense" is the sense of this community - not your personal opinion or preference. If I'm wrong with that, we should rename the database - then it's not a "user driven DVDP database" but "Skips personal database". I'm quite disappointed, that you try to define your opinion as common sense and blame everyone who does not follow your preferences to be outside the common sense...  Regards, AA | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,704 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Bonham has been documented.
Where? - Can we move that on to "common name thread"?
Regards, AA
Just waiting for James to get back - he's travelling at the moment.
Edit: and here is the link to the HBC discussion. I've read this thread. - But it didn't make much sense to me nor I were able to find any common sense  in it... But I'll try to update the german profiles to Helena//Bonham Carter; I'll see what happens... Thanks, AA | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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