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Parsing chinese names, example Gong (Family name) Li (given name)
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
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I have also stated AND quoted Ken and that he recently solved the cultural issue by saying with DOCUMENTATION you can use the CA syustem.

Maybe you missed Ken's subsequent post in the same thread:
Quote:
This thread is specifically about accents and special characters.

His response about how to decapitalise names with accents has nothing to do with word order.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
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Quoting dee1959jay:
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For what it's worth: I can live very well with your approach to use the Credited As feature.

The biggest problem with using "credited as" in such a way is that it would render the CLT almost useless in terms of Asian names, as almost all entries would have to use it to show the names in the family/given order.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Not simplistic at all, deejay. I deal with areas that we CAN address, that does not mean that i don't recognize and understand the issues brought up by foreign character sets, far from it. But I also recognize that I have no control over that in any way, even personally. So while it is an interesting discussion, it is simply academic, WE can't fix it at any level.

So, what happens here. We have users like north, who seem to me to simply want to be disagreeable, even when a solution has been presented and in this case solved by Ken and i am trying my best to explain things and all he wants to do is fight. Then you come in a throw in a side issue over which we can do nothing and my head explodes.

I am sure north, doesn't understand this but his first post in this thread the last day or so was combative, argumentative and insulting to me. All I want to do is see the Rules followed as they were designed and IF a method can be created that will allow something to be done without breaking the design then i am all for it. As in this case with Ken outlining using the CA system, an excellent way of maintaing the design and still allowing the cultural issue to recognized. I simply don't understand the venom that some users have.

Skip
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Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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No north, I miss netx to nothing. I see it as addressing a CULTURAL issue and what are we talking about here ANOTHER cultural issue in much the same vein. It's a COMPROMISE, no compromise is PERFECT ro in Ken's words, no compromise will give infiniute correctness. You, north are talking about infinite correctness, or seem to be, or put another way you don't want compromise you want it your way.

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Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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Quoting northbloke:
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Quoting synner_man:
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In my opinion, your number 3 should be switched.  It should be step 1, where we use screen order (which is usually Family/Given), with a checkbox for those who want it Westernized.

All I know is that if the choice is made that we have to go with backwards-way of putting Given Name/Family Name in the list, despite the credits, then have to use the Credited as system to get it right... well, that will be the end of my contributing Asian cast and crew.  Too much stupid work for something that can be handled simply.

Interesting idea. The reason I chose to word it the way I did was because the fields are already called frist/middle/last. Doing it the way I described would mean that all given names (western and asian) and all family names would end up in the same fields. The checkbox I described would affect only the order they were displayed.
To be honest, if we were told to use "credited as" I would have great difficulty with that also. It would involve an incredible amount of work for very little result. But I felt that as it is an option it was only fair to include it.


I also support this. For me it is important to sort by given name, and it is important to respect asian way to show names. So a checkbox that would be used when it is necessary to reverse the order is a good idea. And I also do not want to use the credited as feature here (in fact I never use it, I prefer not to use credited name when it is not the common name (just for my local, of course...))
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
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@ Skip
The fact that you believe it can be solved the same way is irrelevant. Ken stated that using "credited as" in such a way was for accents and special characters only. It is not your decision to say otherwise. It's up to Ken and Ken only to say that we solve this the same way, or whichever way he wants us to use.
You have every right to give your opinion that this is the best way to solve it, but you have no right to say that this is the way we must do it.
 Last edited: by northbloke
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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You only verify everything I have said, north, including you all too obvious agenda.<sigh>

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Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
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Quoting skipnet50:
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You only verify everything I have said, north, including you all too obvious agenda.<sigh>

I have a very obvious agenda, I have no problem admitting that: Ken makes the decisions - you don't. My agenda is that I follow what Ken decides is best for the online database.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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Sorry, north. I don't believe you.

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Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
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What, you don't believe that Ken makes the decisions?

That I can believe! 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting northbloke:
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Has anyone else PMd Ken asking for guidance on this? I don't want to bother him if someone else has already done it.


I don't know that it is a bother.  Neither he, nor Gerri, have ever complained when I have asked for their input.  I understand that we would rather they work on new features, but this is an important issue that affects a lot of people and an answer should not take that long to give.

The important thing is to give them all the information in a concise and unbiased manner.  Don't make them wade through 9 pages.  I made that mistake with Gerri once and, by the time she got to the end of the thread, she had no idea what the original issue was.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting skipnet50:
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You only verify everything I have said, north, including you all too obvious agenda.<sigh>

Skip  


Much as I hate to say it, mainly because we have been getting along so well lately, I agree with North.

Ken was very clear when he said that remedy only applied to accents and special characters.  To use that remedy for anything else would be to go against that statement.

And let's be clear here.  I have no Asian DVDs...not a one...so nobody can accuse me of having an agenda.  I would just like an answer so we don't have to deal with it again in another month. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
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Quoting Unicus69:
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I don't know that it is a bother.  Neither he, nor Gerri, have ever complained when I have asked for their input.  I understand that we would rather they work on new features, but this is an important issue that affects a lot of people and an answer should not take that long to give.

The important thing is to give them all the information in a concise and unbiased manner.  Don't make them wade through 9 pages.  I made that mistake with Gerri once and, by the time she got to the end of the thread, she had no idea what the original issue was.

Thanks. I'll try and compose a simple PM to Ken detailing the problem and I'll post the text here.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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BTEW north, i just wanted to tell you the field is not called FAMILY name, it is called last name OK. Use the correct terminoloy. that is part of the problem you are having. NO i don't believe you when you say you will accept what ken says, you have already demonstrated that you won't. You want it YOUR way, you have convinced me of that, compromise is not in your vocabulary.

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Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
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OK, I've sent a PM to Ken reading:
Quote:
Hi Ken, I was wondering if you could give us some advice on how best to enter Asian names into Profiler.
The problem at the moment is that Asian names are ordered differently to Western names.
To use a famous example: Chow Yun Fat. Chow is his family name (as in Cole) and Yun Fat is his given name (as in Ken). So if your name was Asian it would be written Cole Ken, not Ken Cole.
The three name fields: "first/middle/last" suggest that the family name goes in the last name field, and the given name is placed in the first & middle fields (whatever is appropriate). I feel this is suggested because when you look at the cast & crew lists in the Edit window, they are ordered by last name, not first. It is also suggested by the fact that we keep double-barrelled names together in one field.
This is causing a conflict in the data entry, as some are entering "Chow" in the first name and "Yun Fat" in the last name, and others are doing the opposite with some using "credited as" to show the reversal on screen.
So far, four paths have been suggested. They are (in no particular order):

- enter the name as seen on screen (Chow//Yun Fat), ignoring the fact that Chow is a family name. Upside: easiest to implement, downside: name would be listed under Y, not C and would mean family names (Western and Asian) would be stored in different fields.

- enter the name following western given/family pattern (Yun Fat//Chow) along with an update to the software (possibly a checkbox) allowing the order to be swapped on screen when needed. Upside: allows all family names (Asian and Western) to be in the same data field but still have the name shown as credited. Downside: impossible to implement without a software update.

- enter the name following western given/family pattern (Yun Fat//Chow) and use "credited as" to show the reversed order on screen. Upside: as above. Downside: the biggest workload and would need to be used for almost all Asian names, ruining the CLT results.

- enter the name as seen on screen (Chow//Yun Fat) along with a software update to allow the name to be shown in the Western order when needed. Upside: less checkboxes to tick than the above software option, more closely matches the current data, downside: family names would be in mixed fields, though maybe the sort used to be changed to take the checkbox into account, needs a software change.


I hope I've managed to convey the problem we have without confusing you too much. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. It would be great if you could clear this up for us.

I hope I haven't missed anything important and I've tried to word it as impartially as I could. I'll post any reply I get here.
 Last edited: by northbloke
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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What i see that you did North. Was  Supplied your inference re: family name. While your post may seem neutral to you, it is loaded. Let's remember what the Rules say to begin with "list names exactly as they are in the credits". Your second choice while consistent wit culture is inconsistent with the Rules. Your first choice is consistent with the rules, but you editorialize. Your fourth choice is a software update which will happen...when? Does not solve the proble, in short.

In readiung your post it is very clear to me what you want to see. Now i want to to ask you a question. Asia is no different from the U.S., France or any other culture, yet you insist that that culture be dealt with specially...why? If iuts about searching, which is what it appears to me to be, that is a local matter and as I have said many timews I don't care what you do locally. In short no special treatment just because of culture, still list the data As you see it, which leaves the options of some form of software update or through the Alias system. That was how it was designed whether you like it or not. The software update is not a bad plan but that does nothing NOW. We can't react to what might happen someday, only with what we have right now.I fail to understand your unwillingness to accept a compromise which is clear to me from your PM.

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Billy Video
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