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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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New Actor/Crew Linking System |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
You asked me several pages back (this thread grew overnight!  ) about how long it took me to link up my local db. I think I worked on it for a couple of sessions (few hours each) per week for 3-4 months.  I suspected as much, based on how much time I spent when the NamesVariants plug-in first came out. This level of effort is one of the reasons why I just don't believe it's the best solution. Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
And then of course as you buy new stuff and download more profiles, it all gets mess ups. One of the things I absolutely hate about the current system is that when you have Name A (BY1) and Name A (BY2) and you download a profile with Name A (no BY), the program assigns the new profile to one of your BY names! This drives me crazy. This is exactly why I finally gave up on trying to link with the current system. It is a never-ending battle. Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Also, another thing I don't like about the current system is that I can't change a common name easily. I have to edit all of the profiles for that name rather than just changing the common name. If you just change the name in your system, you can mess up profiles that were "as credited". And as we slowly, slowly clean-up the main database with proper "as credited" data, this will continue to be a major headache. Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Let's solve the Alan Smithee problem. Also let's make sure we can do whatever we want locally, independent of what gets through the contribution gauntlet, and then we're in good shape I think. I agree. So far, I haven't seen a good solution for this other than potentially retaining the "Credited As" system for this specific situation only. To be honest, I still haven't heard a good explanation of how a "Unique ID" system would work when you are entering cast in a new profile. Having to research each name that has a duplicate in your local would be iffy at best and would be totally reliant on whether you actually have both of those people in your local database. Unless of course the proposal is to retain the CLT for this purpose rather than determining the most common name. Either way it's way more work than most people would do and once again relies on the accuracy of what has already been entered into the main database. We know how well that works for the CLT. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | The Unique key would have to have an online aspect somehow, either downloading the key db periodically or referencing through the online.
When entering a name "John Doe", a list would pop up similar to how it is now. Each of the names in the list are already referenced to a key. If your "John Doe" is the same as any in the list, then the key for that john doe would be added to your local character db. Nothing you would ever see, but the DB entry would be "John Doe" "123456, or something to that effect.
Now there can be many WYSIWYT entries associated with 123456 (like John R. Doe, John Robert Doe, John Robert Joe Sr, etc.)
There would be no common name, just a reference.
This is only a rough Idea, and not sure what it would take from Ken to rewrite a major section of code. This is my idea
Now if you entered a new "John Doe", the system would create a new key, say 123457, so now you have 2 different "John Doe's" referencing 2 different keys (no need for any other ID.
Let's now say you do a full audit later and you find that the "John Doe" you are working on is in the wrong group and referencing the wrong key, you would submit a change to reference the right key. (basically saying that this "John Doe" should not be with this "John Doe" but with this "John Doe" instead
Let's now say you are auditing a profile and it says "John Doe" and it should be "John R. Doe", if it is referencing the correct key, then submit the spelling change only. If it is referencing the wrong key, submit the spelling change and the group change.
What you end up with id a cast/crew list that is WYSIWYT and a properly linked system to all the variances of that name.
Now, when you want to see all the movies that "John Doe" key 123456 is in, pull up the list, and it will show everything under that key, and if desired, how they are credited in each of those movies.
The other thing I would do, is apply this across cast and crew, so when I pull up Clint Eastwood, I can see all his cast and crew entries, if desired, at the same time.
No Common Name issues, no BY issues, just a matter of verifying that they are indeed the same or different.
Of course, people who do not want to do the research, can always just submit without linking. Hopefully somebody would link later.
Ass with any plan(idea) would require the community to work together. | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
When entering a name "John Doe", a list would pop up similar to how it is now. Each of the names in the list are already referenced to a key. If your "John Doe" is the same as any in the list, then the key for that john doe would be added to your local character db. How would I know whether my John Doe is the same as any in the list (assuming they are all listed just as "John Doe") or whether I need to add a "new" John Doe? What information will be displayed to help me distinguish which one is which? Furthermore, how would I know that my John Doe should be linked to John B. Doe who is not in my local database but is in the main database. Honestly, I am just not understanding how this would work. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | The same way that you decide between Jane smith 1955 and Jane Smith 1960. You would obviously have to do a little work. Just like now.
In the data entry screen now, if I have a couple of close actors, I can pull up a list of cast or crew credits already.
It would actually require no more work from the EU standpoint than it does now.
As far as your other point, I already said that there would have to be an online component somehow. Either by downloading a master key DB periodically or referencing an online DB just like we do when adding movies.
EDIT: Thinking about it, it would actually give us a way of looking at complete credits and seeing what we are missing from our collection, if you drew this out to it's natural conclusion. | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,015 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'd be in favour of switching to a linking system along the lines of what Hal proposed. It would have to retain the "as credited" information, and it would also have to allow users to use any type of name sorting locally. Moreover, I agree with Forget's thoughts early in this thread.
With regard to the issue of people with the same "credited as" name, my initial thoughts are that whenever a contributor is entering a name for which several entries exist (different birth years etc.), a warning would have to pop up in DVDP, directing you to an Invelos screen containing information on the various entries. Something like:
"WARNING. There are several cast and/or crew members that have been credited by this name. The database currently contains:
a) John Doe birth year 1 or unique key 1:
acted in the following movies: X, Y and Z
b) John Doe birth year 2 or unique key 2:
acted in the following movies: A, B and C
c) John Doe birth year 3 or unique key 3:
was a sound editor in the following movies: D and E
Which one do you wish to enter?
x a)
x b)
x c)
x Don't know."
In case the user chooses the latter, the entry would go into a pool of names (along with the movie title in question) for which the correct birth year or unique key still needs to be established.
Could something like this work? | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
I'd be in favour of switching to a linking system along the lines of what Hal proposed. It would have to retain the "as credited" information, and it would also have to allow users to use any type of name sorting locally. Moreover, I agree with Forget's thoughts early in this thread.
With regard to the issue of people with the same "credited as" name, my initial thoughts are that whenever a contributor is entering a name for which several entries exist (different birth years etc.), a warning would have to pop up in DVDP, directing you to an Invelos screen containing information on the various entries. Something like:
"WARNING. There are several cast and/or crew members that have been credited by this name. The database currently contains:
a) John Doe birth year 1 or unique key 1:
acted in the following movies: X, Y and Z
b) John Doe birth year 2 or unique key 2:
acted in the following movies: A, B and C
c) John Doe birth year 3 or unique key 3:
was a sound editor in the following movies: D and E
Which one do you wish to enter?
x a)
x b)
x c)
x Don't know."
In case the user chooses the latter, the entry would go into a pool of names (along with the movie title in question) for which the correct birth year or unique key still needs to be established.
Could something like this work? Yup, that makes sense and could definitely work. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 681 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
I'd be in favour of switching to a linking system along the lines of what Hal proposed. It would have to retain the "as credited" information, and it would also have to allow users to use any type of name sorting locally. Moreover, I agree with Forget's thoughts early in this thread.
With regard to the issue of people with the same "credited as" name, my initial thoughts are that whenever a contributor is entering a name for which several entries exist (different birth years etc.), a warning would have to pop up in DVDP, directing you to an Invelos screen containing information on the various entries. Something like:
"WARNING. There are several cast and/or crew members that have been credited by this name. The database currently contains:
a) John Doe birth year 1 or unique key 1:
acted in the following movies: X, Y and Z
b) John Doe birth year 2 or unique key 2:
acted in the following movies: A, B and C
c) John Doe birth year 3 or unique key 3:
was a sound editor in the following movies: D and E
Which one do you wish to enter?
x a)
x b)
x c)
x Don't know."
In case the user chooses the latter, the entry would go into a pool of names (along with the movie title in question) for which the correct birth year or unique key still needs to be established.
Could something like this work? I like this, too. | | | Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez) |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
With regard to the issue of people with the same "credited as" name, my initial thoughts are that whenever a contributor is entering a name for which several entries exist (different birth years etc.), a warning would have to pop up in DVDP, directing you to an Invelos screen containing information on the various entries. Something like:
"WARNING. There are several cast and/or crew members that have been credited by this name. The database currently contains:
a) John Doe birth year 1 or unique key 1:
acted in the following movies: X, Y and Z
b) John Doe birth year 2 or unique key 2:
acted in the following movies: A, B and C
c) John Doe birth year 3 or unique key 3:
was a sound editor in the following movies: D and E
Which one do you wish to enter?
x a)
x b)
x c)
x Don't know."
In case the user chooses the latter, the entry would go into a pool of names (along with the movie title in question) for which the correct birth year or unique key still needs to be established.
Could something like this work? Sounds like an interesting idea to solve the duplicate name issue, if it is technically possible to implement it. | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
I'd be in favour of switching to a linking system along the lines of what Hal proposed. It would have to retain the "as credited" information, and it would also have to allow users to use any type of name sorting locally. Moreover, I agree with Forget's thoughts early in this thread.
With regard to the issue of people with the same "credited as" name, my initial thoughts are that whenever a contributor is entering a name for which several entries exist (different birth years etc.), a warning would have to pop up in DVDP, directing you to an Invelos screen containing information on the various entries. Something like:
"WARNING. There are several cast and/or crew members that have been credited by this name. The database currently contains:
a) John Doe birth year 1 or unique key 1:
acted in the following movies: X, Y and Z
b) John Doe birth year 2 or unique key 2:
acted in the following movies: A, B and C
c) John Doe birth year 3 or unique key 3:
was a sound editor in the following movies: D and E
Which one do you wish to enter?
x a)
x b)
x c)
x Don't know."
In case the user chooses the latter, the entry would go into a pool of names (along with the movie title in question) for which the correct birth year or unique key still needs to be established.
Could something like this work? Just adding more support for this. Good suggestion! |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yep, sounds cool, if it is doable, programming wise. | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | I posted a suggestion in feature requests along these lines that addressed the potential issues a few weeks ago. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 681 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
I posted a suggestion in feature requests along these lines that addressed the potential issues a few weeks ago. I agree that birthyear can't be a working solution for the identifier. And exactly for the reasons mentioned: there are bound to be cases where actors' name AND birth year match. So an unique ID (be it the 8-digit hex as you suggested in the Feature Requests-thread or something else) with the online checking feature proposed by Dee here, looks to me to be a very "valid" way to go. | | | Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez) |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
I'd be in favour of switching to a linking system along the lines of what Hal proposed. It would have to retain the "as credited" information, and it would also have to allow users to use any type of name sorting locally. Moreover, I agree with Forget's thoughts early in this thread.
With regard to the issue of people with the same "credited as" name, my initial thoughts are that whenever a contributor is entering a name for which several entries exist (different birth years etc.), a warning would have to pop up in DVDP, directing you to an Invelos screen containing information on the various entries. This sounds like a useful approach to the problem, providing it's feasible. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am largely just sitting back and listening, and waiting for ken to do whatever it is he is going to do. Then I will evaluate it, just as i did with the existing system. Everything I have seen has both strengths and weaknesses, which way is best for Profiler, to be honest I am not sure. What is certain is that we have a mess, right now, that will literally take years to clean up just based on the amount of data which is known to be bad, I am amazed at just how much bad data continues to be submitted and accepted...this does not include the data that is being submitted to change every copy from everywhere based o upon ONE copy.
I just reviewed an update for How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days: Deluxe Edition and the roles for the first several actors are completely wrong per the credits of the Original release, and this title is still in pre-release. I have no problem with cloning data, as long as it is verified against the ACTUAL credits, but in this case they clearly were not, so I had to reject the update. I don't know how to prevent these kind of abuses to the database as we have to trust each other, but there are some users who will accept almost anything, including some users who were on the Rules Team.<shrugs>
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
I'd be in favour of switching to a linking system along the lines of what Hal proposed. It would have to retain the "as credited" information, and it would also have to allow users to use any type of name sorting locally. Moreover, I agree with Forget's thoughts early in this thread.
With regard to the issue of people with the same "credited as" name, my initial thoughts are that whenever a contributor is entering a name for which several entries exist (different birth years etc.), a warning would have to pop up in DVDP, directing you to an Invelos screen containing information on the various entries. Something like:
"WARNING. There are several cast and/or crew members that have been credited by this name. The database currently contains:
a) John Doe birth year 1 or unique key 1:
acted in the following movies: X, Y and Z
b) John Doe birth year 2 or unique key 2:
acted in the following movies: A, B and C
c) John Doe birth year 3 or unique key 3:
was a sound editor in the following movies: D and E
Which one do you wish to enter?
x a)
x b)
x c)
x Don't know."
In case the user chooses the latter, the entry would go into a pool of names (along with the movie title in question) for which the correct birth year or unique key still needs to be established.
Could something like this work? The late DVDSpot had something like this. You had to pick a name from an online database for all cast and crew section. For any name you choose, you could click on a name and see what other movies they were profiled in. If there was no one on the online database that matched your entry, you had to submit the name as a new cast/crew for the database and it would then be approved/disapproved by a screening moderator. | | | | My Home Theater |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,029 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Also, another thing I don't like about the current system is that I can't change a common name easily. I have to edit all of the profiles for that name rather than just changing the common name. If you just change the name in your system, you can mess up profiles that were "as credited". While I voted to keep the current system, this is one thing Ken has backwards. The primary name entered should be the "Credited As" name, then you pick a common name if necessary for linking. I think TomGaines' CCViewer does (or at least did) it that way, and it is far more logical. As many of you know, my Name Variants Plugin makes the job of changing common names and retaining the "Credited As" name quite easy, but it is only intended for similar names, not for cases where an actor sometimes uses a completely different name. The proposition made by dee1959jay is something that, for example, IMDb does. And it is a good procedure, if you have algorithms in place to prioritize appearances by popularity (again, as IMDb does). A simple complete list of appearances isn't good enough to aid users in picking the correct person. It also makes little sense with the profile-based (as opposed to movie-based) way credits are handled in DVDProfiler. I don't want to spoil the fun of tossing around ideas for a better linking system, but I haven't seen anyone analyzing the impact on usability, performance and data size those ideas would have, not to mention how well it would integrate with the way contributions and updates are currently processed. No, I haven't done it either, because I don't have the time and it is not my job. But I'm not convinced that those ideas are superior to the way it is currently done. | | | | Matthias | | | | Last edited: by goodguy |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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