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Hiroshi Kan Ikeuchi common name
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKluge
Registered: August 4, 2007
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Quoting Berak:
Quote:

I don't think the concept of "Common Names" are unclear to me, no. We have different opinions in the matter, but that does not mean yours is the only right one... 


OK, please explain me what is a common name (and I don't think that common name is an opinion).

Quote:
I am unwilling to accept someones interpretation of a common name based on "because I said so".


And nobody has said this! I showed you the data, and still I can't understand what is wrong in this data.

Quote:
I am at least under no circumstance going to be bullied by T!M into doing so, as he has proven time again that he cannot, under any circumstances, be trusted with his data.


And again I don't understand what T!M has to do with this. 
Updated List of Accepted Birth Years
 Last edited: by Kluge
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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United States Posts: 13,177
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
So, still not entirely accurate, but certainly a huge improvement from the previously reported, woefully incorrect 17 titles (!) for what's actually the least-used name variant. Those that insisted on taking those obviously flawed numbers on face value can start fixing their incorrect entries right now.

Was it really necessary to take a dig, at those that didn't agree with you, in your last sentence?  You jump on people for gloating then turn around and make a snide remarks about them.  Am I the only one who sees a double standard here? 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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No, you aren't, amigo. But to be fair it'snot all on Tim's shoulders either in terms of double standards.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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O.k. let's look at a post, from Ken, that wasn't cherry picked.  In this post, from March 7, 2009, Ken said:

Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
It is not necessary to document the source of the common name, outside the use of the CLT.  If there is a dispute over whether the credit references the same person, documentation may be necessary.  However, in most cases it is not required.

I have notified the evaluators to disregard general demands for specific documentation of common name outside the use of the CLT.

Users who prefer more rigidly documented common names are free to enforce those rules on their local data.

According to that post, we don't have to do anything other than check the CLT results.  We don't have to prove they are the same person, we don't have to prove that the CLT results are correct, we don't have to do anything outside the use of the CLT.

People who prefer more rigidly documented common names, are free to enforce those rules on their local data.  And make no mistake, that is exactly what is being done with all these common name threads so this post does apply...though I am sure someone will claim it doesn't. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,177
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Quoting Kluge:
Quote:
OK, please explain me what is a common name (and I don't think that common name is an opinion).

A common name is the most credited form, based on the title count in the CLT.  That's it.  Nothing more, nothing less.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKluge
Registered: August 4, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Italy Posts: 2,163
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Kluge:
Quote:
OK, please explain me what is a common name (and I don't think that common name is an opinion).

A common name is the most credited form, based on the title count in the CLT.  That's it.  Nothing more, nothing less.


So the common name is the most credited form, good. And CLT is the tool that we use to estabilish which is the most credited form, very good. However:

Quoting Ken Cole
Quote:

Posted: November 13, 2007 10:26 PM
The lookup tool is not to be blindly trusted, however it does outweigh other sources, including autographs. The common name is not intended to always reflect the "real name", but the most commonly credited name.

However, if a user documents errors in the database where the credit is not entered properly, that can and should be considered.  Better yet, correct the entries, assuming you own the discs in question, thereby correcting the lookup results.


Furthermore, in this case, there are not ambiguous credits, for all the different copy of every title is reported the same credits, so we don't have to estabilish which is the correct credit, we know reading the results that in every copy of Aliens vs. Predator 2 and Monkeybone is credited Hiroshi "Kan" Ikeuchi, doesn't matter which EAN or which locality, and even if the CLT result is 4 titles, we see the the real titles are only 2, and so on.
Updated List of Accepted Birth Years
 Last edited: by Kluge
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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United States Posts: 13,177
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I already addressed your 'however' earlier in this thread...and, in my opinion, Ken also addressed it in his more recent post I quoted above...but I will do so again.

Yes, Ken said the CLT wasn't to be blindly trusted, but that isn't the same as saying "don't trust it."  Yes, Ken said if someone documents an error, that can and should be considered, but he stopped short of saying it must be considered and accepted.  I don't know whether or not that was Ken's intent, nobody does, and that is why I go by what he actually wrote.  Your mileage, of course, will vary.

Quoting Kluge:
Quote:
Furthermore, in this case, there are not ambiguous credits, for all the different copy of every title is reported the same credits, so we don't have to estabilish which is the correct credit, we know reading the results that in every copy of Aliens vs. Predator 2 and Monkeybone is credited Hiroshi "Kan" Ikeuchi, doesn't matter which EAN or which locality, and even if the CLT result is 4 title, we see the the real title are only 2.

If you dig deeper than the CLT results, then yes, you are correct.  But nobody has to dig any deeper.  That is the point I am trying to make.  If you want to, that is fine, but you can't expect everyone to go that extra mile nor can you force them to accept your findings.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 3,480
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
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If you want to, that is fine, but you can't expect everyone to go that extra mile nor can you force them to accept your findings.

I think that's overstating things a bit. It's true that no one can force someone to accept their findings. That's not the way contributions work. Contributions are put up for a vote, voters vote and screeners screen. There's never any forcing, no matter what the issue is.

Does someone have to drill-down beyond the CLT to contribute a common name? No.

Can you vote against them if they don't?
- On the basis that the CLT might be flawed, No.
- On the basis that you as a voter have information to show that the CLT is incorrect, yes. 

You can vote no with a comment just as you would in any situation where can show that the documentation is flawed. That doesn't force anyone to withdraw or do anything differently. It's a tip to the screeners and they decide.

Can someone drill-down beyond the CLT and present that research to document a common name? Yes.

Can you vote against them if they present drill-down CLT info to override the CLT?
- On the basis that the info is not the CLT, no.
- On the basis that you as a voter have information to show that the drill-down is incorrect, yes.

But if someone presents documentation to refute the CLT, you can't vote no just because it isn't CLT info. And a voter can't vote no just because they don't trust the info.

That's my take on it anyway.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,177
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  Clearly my take is different that your's, then again, I am coming at this from a different perspective.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorbob9000
safety word?
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 844
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I am coming at this from a different perspective.

That is only to be expected, after all, you do hail from another planet...and you seem right ticked off about it too. 
 Last edited: by bob9000
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
O.k. let's look at a post, from Ken, that wasn't cherry picked.  In this post, from March 7, 2009, Ken said:

Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
It is not necessary to document the source of the common name, outside the use of the CLT.  If there is a dispute over whether the credit references the same person, documentation may be necessary.  However, in most cases it is not required.

I have notified the evaluators to disregard general demands for specific documentation of common name outside the use of the CLT.

Users who prefer more rigidly documented common names are free to enforce those rules on their local data.

According to that post, we don't have to do anything other than check the CLT results.  We don't have to prove they are the same person, we don't have to prove that the CLT results are correct, we don't have to do anything outside the use of the CLT.

People who prefer more rigidly documented common names, are free to enforce those rules on their local data.  And make no mistake, that is exactly what is being done with all these common name threads so this post does apply...though I am sure someone will claim it doesn't. 


I agree, Martian, BUT i do not interpret that to mean simply stating that someone USED the CLT without posting the results is an acceptable practice. It is NOT acceptable, i expect to see the results. For all we iknow these users are out and out lying and simply making up the data while CLAIMING to have checked the CLT, I seem to recall such a case recently, where are user claim was challenged by another user citing specific results to prove that the Contributior was ummm let's just say less than honest.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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United States Posts: 13,177
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Quoting Woola:
Quote:
I agree, Martian, BUT i do not interpret that to mean simply stating that someone USED the CLT without posting the results is an acceptable practice. It is NOT acceptable, i expect to see the results. For all we iknow these users are out and out lying and simply making up the data while CLAIMING to have checked the CLT, I seem to recall such a case recently, where are user claim was challenged by another user citing specific results to prove that the Contributior was ummm let's just say less than honest.

Skip

I voted on a contribution like that except, in that case, the contributor did include the CLT results...or what he claimed were the CLT results.  I, and another user, checked the numbers and came up with the same answer...his numbers were wrong.  So, for me at least, it doesn't really matter whether or not they include the CLT numbers.  If it is a person I don't trust, I am going to check them anyway.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormarcelb7
Registered: Oct. 16, 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Netherlands Posts: 655
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Quoting Woola:
Quote:
I agree, Martian, BUT i do not interpret that to mean simply stating that someone USED the CLT without posting the results is an acceptable practice. It is NOT acceptable, i expect to see the results.

And this is in the contribution rules, where exactly? I can't seem to find it.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVittra
O.o
Registered: September 29, 2008
United States Posts: 384
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Woola:
Quote:
I agree, Martian, BUT i do not interpret that to mean simply stating that someone USED the CLT without posting the results is an acceptable practice. It is NOT acceptable, i expect to see the results. For all we iknow these users are out and out lying and simply making up the data while CLAIMING to have checked the CLT, I seem to recall such a case recently, where are user claim was challenged by another user citing specific results to prove that the Contributior was ummm let's just say less than honest.

Skip

I voted on a contribution like that except, in that case, the contributor did include the CLT results...or what he claimed were the CLT results.  I, and another user, checked the numbers and came up with the same answer...his numbers were wrong.  So, for me at least, it doesn't really matter whether or not they include the CLT numbers.  If it is a person I don't trust, I am going to check them anyway.


I agree with this. I think Pantheon once explained this stance rather well once. If I don't trust someone's work, I'll always go and verify that it is correct myself. There might always be people who try to lie to get what they want into the database. I don't believe T!M is one of these people though. As far as I'm aware, has any of his information been proven wrong? So why so much lack of trust. If someone doesn't trust his work, I suggest you (Skip or anyone else that doesn't trust someone's work) start checking if it's wrong, and if he really is submitting bad data (which I don't believe to be the case), then vote against it. Only then do I believe it's perfectly understandable that you don't trust him.

Only after I have proven that someone is not to be trusted will I stop trusting them. Not just because they won't prove their basis to me. It just seems backwards and rather cold to me to do otherwise. Don't get me wrong though, I'm a skeptic at times as well. But I think people take skepticism to a whole new level sometimes. 
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire
 Last edited: by Vittra
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormarcelb7
Registered: Oct. 16, 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Vittra:
Quote:
But I think people take skepticism to a whole new level sometimes. 

Especially on this forum! 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorBerak
Up the Irons!
Registered: May 10, 2007
Norway Posts: 1,059
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Quoting Vittra:
Quote:
I don't believe T!M is one of these people though. As far as I'm aware, has any of his information been proven wrong?


Yes it has. I won't go into the how's and where's here as this would only instigate further derailing of this thread. But, the answer is YES - he has been proven wrong - several times!
Berak

It's better to burn out than to fade away!
True love conquers all!
 Last edited: by Berak
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