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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Original Title field for TV series |
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| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Winston Smith: Quote:
instead of trying to get Profiler to be a clone of IMDb, why not just go use the real thing. DVDprofiler is a program that works with data. Data may be DVDprofiler online data (which are mostly wrong and not linking), or IMDB data (which are mostly right and correctly linking). Each of us may use what he wants for his local. | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: September 11, 2010 | | Posts: 42 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
The only advantage of the CLT is to help some users to increase their 32000+ contribution score, which seems more important for them than asking Ken for a workable system. LOL. I have just learnt a lesson about typing long posts here - save before previewing! Well, here's the abridged version: 1. Actors names Don't waste your time deciding what the common name actually is. Just pick one. Suggested format without punctuation: Depardieu Gerard 1948 2. TV Series They seem to be made of two parts separated by a colon. "Name: Series #" (BTW, that should be ##) Season, Series, Saison etc. is irrelevant trivia. The Title name can usually be discerned from the title credits within any locality, without reference to the cover of the Country of Origin dvd case. Suggested format: Brothers & Sisters: 02 Please note that I am offering a suggestion, not a solution, about the problem of not having a simple way of linking data fields consistently.  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Very true, but given that you can track 10,000 titles for free at IMDb and you believe that they are correct for YOU, then why do double work, seems silly. Just enter your titles and add them toyour collection then you have the benefits that you see in IMDb and half the work. I mean heck you don't even have to scan covers. The difference however when you talk about correct data is what YOU define as correct versus what Profiler calls correct. Now you see I don't happen to find IMDb correct because they have entirely too much fictional data, and their data has no basis in reality, they have NEVER produced a SINGLE film yet they tell you what the data should be, which you gladly accept.Profiler simply goes with the data that is provided by those that made the film and therefore have FIRST HAND knowledge of the same data. I just don't get why you continue to use Profiler,Yves,it seems to me that you would be much happier using IMDb, and much less work for you. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting J68: Quote:
Thanks T!M. I appreciate the extensive reply.
Still, it doesn't alter the fact that the original production title will in nearly all instances be the same name in whichever locality you choose to view. The niggle here is the inclusion of Season or Series in the title - so the Contribution Rules are at fault. Given the extensive debate here, I can see that it was probably an unintended consequence. Having said that, if an actor chooses to be Joe in one title and Joeseph in another title, why would we want to log anything other than the name they chose to be credited under? Because they want an IMDb style linking system. What I mean is, they want the ability to click on 'Joe' and get all the titles for 'Joe' as well as 'Joseph'. Quote:
The horse has clearly bolted on this one, and no one has persuaded me in this thread that there is a viable way of unpicking every "erroneous" entry that exists. From comments previously made, would I be wrong in thinking you have 10 years worth of contributions to address? Other contributors have suggested that this issue needs a significant investment to correct.
You seem to be 10 years too late in trying to sort this out You have hit the nail squarely on the head here. For most of the last ten years, we were only concerned with the actual credit. Joe was Joe, Joseph was Joseph, and never the twain shall meet. Some people didn't like that so, after many requests, Ken gave us the 'credited as' system. Under that system, we pick a 'comman name', and link all the other variants to it. The three biggest flaws in this system, at least from what I can tell, are... it has to be done on a profile by profile basiswe all have to use the same common namethe common name can change over timeThe CLT was an attempt to solve the second of those three. Unfortunately, as you can see by this and many other threads, the CLT came with its own set of flaws. Quote:
I hope it works out for you. As do I, but I think it is a losing battle...which is why I threw in the towel a long time ago. This won't be fixed until the system is fixed, and this won't fix the system. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | J68:
Actually the BEST system to use is what some of us call simple association. Probably similar to what you trieds to describe.
By and large the linking system is a local issue, more than an Online one, at this point in time. What is neded is a way to share the various links. But the simple association system would work as follows against today
Today we have
NameA=NameB AND NameC AND NameD, but first you have to establish NameA. As long as we are dealing with user generated data this will be problematic ALWAYS
The Simple Association would work as follows
NameA=NameB=NameC=NameD
This has the advantage of not requiring a Priority name to drive the system.Once the associations are made for the name Variants, it no longer matters from a Search/Filter viewpoint. You can enter whatever name you wish in the association list and you will get exactly the same list of films. You don't have to KNOW what the Priority Name is. This also gives the user the ability to tailor the resilts to his liking. For example, the searched/filtered name list could be displayed first with following Name Variants being displayed based on incidence.A much smoother system but...we aren't there...maybe we will be, I can't say. Just have to wait and see.
What is given is the current system is dysfunctional. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Winston Smith: Quote:
Yves:
As ihave saidmany time if you want to worship at the altar of IMDb you are free to do so, and you can track up to 10,000 title in your collection positively for FREE. BUT this is Profiler and NOT Imdb, nor does it need to be since IMDb already exists. You know,I would say that if you like them so much, Yves, instead of trying to get Profiler to be a clone of IMDb, why not just go use the real thing.<shrugs>   Say what you want about IMDb, but they got one thing right...their linking system works. I can open up their profile for X-Men, double click on 'Rebecca Romijn', and get everything she has been in no matter how she was credited. I don't have to start a common name thread. I don't have to disect the CLT results. I don't even have to know that she was ever credited as something other than 'Rebecca Romijn'. They do have their flaws, and I have found my fair share of mistakes over the years, but they do that one thing better than Profiler ever will...unless they change their linking system.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Winston Smith:
Quote:
Yves:
As ihave saidmany time if you want to worship at the altar of IMDb you are free to do so, and you can track up to 10,000 title in your collection positively for FREE. BUT this is Profiler and NOT Imdb, nor does it need to be since IMDb already exists. You know,I would say that if you like them so much, Yves, instead of trying to get Profiler to be a clone of IMDb, why not just go use the real thing.<shrugs>
Say what you want about IMDb, but they got one thing right...their linking system works. I can open up their profile for X-Men, double click on 'Rebecca Romijn', and get everything she has been in no matter how she was credited. I don't have to start a common name thread. I don't have to disect the CLT results. I don't even have to know that she was ever credited as something other than 'Rebecca Romijn'.
They do have their flaws, and I have found my fair share of mistakes over the years, but they do that one thing better than Profiler ever will...unless they change their linking system. I won't go that far, amigo. But yes it does need to be changed.I continue to try and come up with a way to make the existing system work, after all I really would hate to see all that work of Tim's go for naught, but i just don't see any way to make it happen.  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Merrik and TheMadMartian, as usual, articulate many of the things that I would like to get across. So, I am late to the table once again. First, J68 I would like to extend a warm welcome to the forums. Fresh eyes often see things that us old timers miss. I look forward to reading your thoughts on ways to improve the database. The people that have been here awhile might be able to assist you too. For example, the rules for contributing to the online database are one area that can be a bit confusing. There will always be flaws in any program including this one. For example one of my personal pet peeves is the inability of the program to have any other cover scan other than the initial release. IMDb also has flaws too but is another great resource for movie lovers. I don't believe that there can ever be a perfect program. What works best for one person might not for another so how can it ever be perfect? You might already know this but it is important to know that there is a vast difference between what you do in your local database and what you contribute online. Locally, you can do anything you want. Data, scans etc. can be made exactly the way you want. It is also important to utilize the Lock capabilities to prevent any information from being lost during updates. It is only when you decide to contribute to the online database that you might run into problems. There are guidelines in place that were established to try and have everyone contribute the same way. These can be found in two places: 1) http://invelos.com/dvdpro/contributions/Rules.aspx 2) http://invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=430575 Questions regarding contributions, such as the one we are discussing in this thread, is found here: http://invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewforum&forumID=3 You will find that this program, although not perfect, has staunch supporters who are passionate about it. Watch out...or you might become one of them!  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Kathy:
They are NOT Guidelines. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Winston Smith: Quote:
Kathy:
They are NOT Guidelines. Skip, Definition of guideline: n. 1. a rule or set of rules giving guidance on how to behave in a situation. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co. | | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | We had Guidelines, now we have Rules. There is a distinction. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
Quoting Winston Smith:
Quote:
Kathy:
They are NOT Guidelines.
Skip,
Definition of guideline:
n. 1. a rule or set of rules giving guidance on how to behave in a situation.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co. While I agree with you, there are people who used to say that 'guidelines' aren't rules...I even remember having a conversation where I used the same definition as you did. It is because of that, and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, that Skip is adamant about the use of the word 'rules'. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
Quoting Winston Smith:
Quote:
Kathy:
They are NOT Guidelines.
Skip,
Definition of guideline:
n. 1. a rule or set of rules giving guidance on how to behave in a situation.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co.
While I agree with you, there are people who used to say that 'guidelines' aren't rules...I even remember having a conversation where I used the same definition as you did. It is because of that, and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, that Skip is adamant about the use of the word 'rules'. Skip is not the owner of the program so his input carries no more weight than any other user of this program. According to Webster's dictionary my use of "guidelines" is valid as you can see from the section I quoted above. In fact, I feel that "guidelines" is actually a more encompassing term since one of the sections I quoted (2) http://invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=430575) is only a clarification in the forums regarding contributions. But, I am not going to waste any time and energy debating semantics so this is the last I will speak on this topic. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Kathy: Neither are YOU.They are called Contribution RULES, they are NOT called Contribution Guidelinesfor exactly the reason that the Martian stated. We did indeed have users just like you, who used to say they are Guidelines we do not HAVE to follow Guidelines' The end result was a MESS, nobody paid any attention to the Guidelines, they did what they wanted, we had one title that was edited 900 times in FIVE years, ONE TITLE, we had users trying to manipulate the sorting of titles Online for their own personal reasons, even after Ken himself made public comments that sort=title. So we have Rules and if you don't follow them your contribution is declined. Now we have users like yourself who simply say "New cover images for your consideration", despite the fact that Gerri has suggested several times that it is a good idea to describe what you believe the improvement to be. You notice that when I vote No I describe the problems that i see. So you apparently think you are someone special when you won't even follow Gerri's suggestion and she is one of the owners of the program. They are Rules,they are not guidelines,they are not suggestions, they ARE the way it is done in Profiler.  I am thrilled that you think Guidelinea are more encompassing...NOT. Let me quote to you from Invelos, under Tools is a thing called Contribution RULES, they are not, called Contribution Guidelines or Contribution Suggestions, they are called RULES. You had not even discovered the program then,I remember what those days were like, no they will not return. We have Rules.  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
Skip is not the owner of the program so his input carries no more weight than any other user of this program.
According to Webster's dictionary my use of "guidelines" is valid as you can see from the section I quoted above.
In fact, I feel that "guidelines" is actually a more encompassing term since one of the sections I quoted (2) http://invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=430575) is only a clarification in the forums regarding contributions.
But, I am not going to waste any time and energy debating semantics so this is the last I will speak on this topic. I don't disagree with you. For me, the two words are interchangeable so, I agree with you 100%. I was just offering, what I believed, was some insight as to why skip takes exception to the term. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Define
Guideline - Recommended practice that allows some discretion or leeway in its interpretation, implementation, or use.
Rule - Statement that establishes a principle or standard, and serves as a norm for guiding or mandating action or conduct
So in realism, we have a set of rules as expressed in the "Contribution Rules" and guidelines which have been expressed (but not yet codified within the rules) in the contribution forum.
Charlie |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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