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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Can we ever stop copying from IMDb? |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,199 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
I think my answer means also clearly yes, but I did not give that evident answer as your question was just a provocation. Isn't it possible that Ken has refused to answer for the same reason? Quote:
When you read names with spelling mistakes, you think in your mind with corresponding sounds, and I swear you that a name pronounced Frankois is quite ridiculous, and even could be not understood to be François in spoken language. Just as I sometimes do not understand my own name when pronounced by English speaking people ("Yves" is pronounced in French exactly like "Eve" in English, and I heard tons of time, from english speaking persons, that I had a girl's name...) Let me correct you on this point...when I see Francois, I don't think, in my mind, that it is pronounced Frankois. In my mind, I see the 'c' as having an 's' sound. I will admit that I thought your name was pronounced Eves...but that is because there is no way to tell that the 's' is silent. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
...when I see Francois, I don't think, in my mind, that it is pronounced Frankois. You don't, because it is not your culture. That is why most American people do not find Ken's clarification as a real problem. But 100% of French people (except babies and senile people) pronounce co>ko, ca>ka, cu>ku but ce>se and ci>si. | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
...when I see Francois, I don't think, in my mind, that it is pronounced Frankois.
You don't, because it is not your culture. That is why most American people do not find Ken's clarification as a real problem. But 100% of French people (except babies and senile people) pronounce co>ko, ca>ka, cu>ku but ce>se and ci>si. And there is the rub. The French people. We are not talking about the french people, we are talking about a consistent rule for a multinational community. Charlie |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
we are talking about a consistent rule for a multinational community. Indeed. That's really the key to the whole thing. It's not about one person's idea of correctness versus another person's idea of correctness - it's simply about one single, simple, consistent rule for a multinational community. And within the confines of the current system, Ken did the best he could do. |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
And there is the rub. The French people. We are not talking about the french people, we are talking about a consistent rule for a multinational community.
 We are talking about near 50 languages that are not English. I take my examples in French because I know them. But we have same problems in Spanish, Swedish, Czech,... and with romanisation of asian or cyrillic characters. To take a non French example (Czech), I find it also stupid to enter Iva Janžurová in her accusative form Ivu Janžurovou, (which is far from allowing correct linking), just because credits makers added a sentence at the beginning of credits that make the names in accusative form. The nominative form should be used in DVDP, as in any site about movies anywhere in the world. | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,199 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
...when I see Francois, I don't think, in my mind, that it is pronounced Frankois.
You don't, because it is not your culture. That is why most American people do not find Ken's clarification as a real problem. But 100% of French people (except babies and senile people) pronounce co>ko, ca>ka, cu>ku but ce>se and ci>si. You are making more assumptions that simply aren't true. I know that co=ko, I mean, I don't pronounce 'coke' as 'swak', I pronounce it as 'koke'. I just know, like most english speakers, that in certain cases, it can also be 'swa'. I guess it is a good thing I am not French...since I am not a baby, I would be considered senile.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 |  Posts: 1,982 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
That common name might as well have had a format like "actorID_6378585".
That will be a great solution for our personal database. It will stop the problem when 2 cast/crew members or more share the same name without a birthdate. A format like that will differenciate between 2 John Doe without the need to name one John Doe and the other John Doe (1). The same name appear on the screen, but a choosen invisible identifier differenciate the name (kind of like the birthdate, but an arbitary numeral code for our personal database). At least for our local database that would be an awesome addition. See sometimes I can agree with you |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
And there is the rub. The French people. We are not talking about the french people, we are talking about a consistent rule for a multinational community.
We are talking about near 50 languages that are not English. I take my examples in French because I know them. But we have same problems in Spanish, Swedish, Czech,... and with romanisation of asian or cyrillic characters.
To take a non French example (Czech), I find it also stupid to enter Iva Janžurová in her accusative form Ivu Janžurovou, (which is far from allowing correct linking), just because credits makers added a sentence at the beginning of credits that make the names in accusative form. The nominative form should be used in DVDP, as in any site about movies anywhere in the world. And exactly how do you propose to issue a rule that can be consistently applied by all people across "50 different languages"? Yes, every language has it nuances. But with the simple Invariant Rule, a person from Hungary can enter a French name, A person from Czechoslovakia can enter a Brazilian name, A Russian can enter a Polish Name. No Difference any where (short of symbolic languages, but that is a different issue) You seem to have this idea of accuracy, that does not coexist with DVD Profiler. Pete already brought up the point Ken made, about usability over accuracy. For some reason, you are more vocal, and have a hard time dealing with it. Apparently you have already made that decision, and have informed everybody of that decision. You keep everything local, and do not participate in contributions. That is your choice, and you can deal locally with it however you choose. To come on here and repeatedly accuse people of caring for one thing over another, does not earn you any good will (especially when you can not take the same from your end). You assume by Ken's absence on the subject that he doesn't know enough to make a decision or that he doesn't care. You cannot accept the fact that he has already made his decision. It is a decision that he has chosen to stick with, and apparently your repeated statements and insinuations have not swayed him to your way of thinking. There have been change requests that a solid majority of the online participants have requested, and he hasn't made changes. I don't accuse him of not understanding. I do not know him personally and have not had those discussions with him. I will repeat what I said before. Ken made a decision that he felt was best for the usability of the program. All the arguments have been made concerning diacritics in many different ways, I am sure he understands. We are not, let me repeat that, NOT, ever going to agree, based upon the arguments you have made. Charlie |
| | Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
You appear to be unwilling to answer.
I think my answer means also clearly yes, but I did not give that evident answer as your question was just a provocation.
To go further, accentuation is directly connected to pronunciation. Though sounds are not exactly the same in all languages, é is near the i of pig, ê near the a of cat, è, near the e of ten. ça is "sa", ca is "ka".
... If this is the main reason why you want a change, please support this suggested feature request: Quote:
Second one: A feature to enter a local name for an actor/cast member would be a nice feature. (without influence of the online database) Yesterday I was thinking about how to write again something to your most loved discussion theme, especially to the parts of the rules and clarifications that you think don't match together, (and yes I think they make perfectly sense) but after reading the parts of this thread of today, I decided it's not worth the time. But if anyone else wants, I'll do. Edit: At searching something different, I found this part in Wikipedia: Quote:
Accents
In most languages which use diacritics, these are treated the same way in uppercase whether the text is capitalized or all-uppercase. They may be always preserved (as in German) or always omitted or often omitted (as in French and Spanish)[8]. Some attribute this to the fact that diacritics on capital letters were not available earlier on typewriters, and it is now becoming more common to capitalize them in French and Spanish (in both languages the rule is to preserve them [9], although in France, for instance, schoolchildren are often taught, yet incorrectly, that they should not add diacritics on capital letters). If the second part is correct, we can hope, in future also the all-caps credits get correctly accented. | | | | Last edited: by VirusPil |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
(...) It's only about establishing a common name. That common name might as well have had a format like "actorID_6378585". (...) You would be correct, if the common name would only be a key used for linking. But it's not. It is primarily used as data fields (3 of them) to describe the person and is used as a presentation to the user. Therefore don't argue that this data doesn't have to be "correct" somehow. And this of course includes spelling, capitalisation, and pronunciation. Linking is one aspect in profile, and as it seems the most important one for you, but not the only one. For me linking is not so important, but a nice side effect. A reasonable spelling of people's names is more important to me. On the other hand, if Invelos would add a linking id such as "actorID_6378585", I would not protest. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
But the credits, in all caps, have no spelling mistake. You add it during your "conversion" (sabotage seems more appropriate than conversion)
No. It's actually the other way around: if there is no diacritical on the screen, then you're adding it during your "conversion". (...) No, his conversion isn't adding errors (or sabotaging as you call it  ). It happens that his conversion is the one used in normal language while Invelos's conversion is simplified for the sake of easier data entry. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
(...) There's no way Ken can accomodate all of those, so he had to create a universal way of dealing with this - for DVD Profiler purposes - that's workable for everyone. It's no more difficult than that. We have a system that works for universal data entry other aspects of people's names, namely parsing. Use your native background knowledge and document your corrections. This would work as well for accentuation of common names. Specially with a small addition to all those common name threads in this forum, documentation would be relatively easy. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Invelos's conversion is simplified for the sake of easier data entry. It is indeed, that's all I've been saying. And I consider that to be a very wise move. Quote:
We have a system that works for universal data entry other aspects of people's names, namely parsing. Use your native background knowledge and document your corrections. I'm sorry, but that made me laugh out loud just now - to the point that I actually spilled some coffee over my keyboard. We have "a system that works", for parsing?!  Let me show you the latest parsing thread: here. That's the kind of "system that works" we have: the latest dozen or so (if you want, I can provide links to all of them) have pretty much all resulted in more or less of a tie; there's no consensus at all, and what one person finds acceptable "documentation" for one particular way of parsing, is readily dismissed by the other half. If that's the kind of "system that works" you'd like to see for diacriticals, then thanks, but no thanks. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
And there is the rub. The French people. We are not talking about the french people, we are talking about a consistent rule for a multinational community.
Charlie It's not about French only. Many names from many languages use diacritics. In a multilingual system those should be handled correctly. And they are handled correctly in profiler except for names which we simplify for easier data entry. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
And exactly how do you propose to issue a rule that can be consistently applied by all people across "50 different languages"? The same way we do it for title capitalisation or name parsing? Use your knowledge and document changes. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,667 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
And exactly how do you propose to issue a rule that can be consistently applied by all people across "50 different languages"?
The same way we do it for title capitalisation or name parsing? Use your knowledge and document changes. For title capitalisation we have a clear set of rules, so that's totally different, and parsing (see my previous post) is a complete and utter disaster. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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