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Hiroshi Kan Ikeuchi common name
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Faggot
Registered: September 21, 2009
Posts: 6
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Quick question: in this situation the confusion has been caused by badly entered title information - is anyone fixing these to make the CLT more accurate or are they only changing the common name in the cast?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
For this to work, everybody has to be on the same page.

But that's where this thread comes in. By publicizing his findings here for all to see, Kluge has done everything in his power to maximize awareness. We've done these common-name finding threads for ages, and this is how they work. And Ken has supported that right from the start, by saying that "the lookup tool is not to be blindly trusted", and by specifically stating that we should take such errors into account. There's nothing new about this particular thread - if anything, I'd have expected it to be even less of an issue than usual, as this one doesn't have any "ambiguous credits" (titles that are, usually due to IMDb-mined data, listed under more than one name variant).

With 6 vs. 2 titles and no ambigious credits, you'd think this was a slam dunk.

You completely missed my point.  Yes, Kluge has done everything in his power to maximize awareness, but...and this is the problem with all these threads and anything that is done in the forums...the number of people who will actually see it is very small.  The vast majority of users, as well as contrubutors, never set foot in these forums so will use the CLT...as they are directed to do in the rules.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,199
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Quoting Forget_the_Rest:
Quote:
Exactly T!M.

Using what TheMadMartian has said, we've also got people who only use the CLT for deciding the common name in a normal situation, then we've got other people who create threads to see if it's right or not. Following his line of thinking, there's no point in those if people aren't all doing the same. I however disagree. Although it will take time, if people do do this, over time it will remove more and more of the incorrect entries be it IMDb mined data or incorrect common name due to poorly entered titles giving too many title results.

I am trying to understand how you are coming to this conclusion.  Let's take a real example from this thread.

These are the CLT results:
"George D. Wallace" is credited in the following 105 titles (258 profiles)
"George P. Wallace" is credited in the following 1 titles (1 profiles)
"George Wallace" is credited in the following 128 titles (440 profiles)

Based on those results, the common name is 'George Wallace'.  Based on the disection, however, the common name is 'George D. Wallace'.  So, while ninehours, and the other nine people who participated in that thread are using 'George D. Wallace' as their common name, the rest of us are using 'George Wallace'.  How, over time, does this make things better?  Unless ninehours plans on adjusting all 699 profiles, how has anything changed? 

Those are serious questions.  I really am trying to understand because, from where I stand, the number of people willing to do that extra work just isn't big enough to make a difference.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
Have Gun Will Travel
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 2,394
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
No, it's two: 'Aliens vs. Predator 2' 'Monkeybone'.

As for the accusation that I'm lying, well: please tell me the other fifteen movies, apart from the already confirmed 'Aliens vs. Predator 2' and 'Monkeybone' ones, in which you've found additional Hiroshi "Kan" Ikeuchi credits, will you? I won't be holding my breath.

If you can't, then don't accuse me of lying. 

What you seem more than willing to ignore is the proven fact that just because there are two or more versions of Alien vs. Predator 2 it does not necessariliy follow that the actual film credits for each version are identical.

Example:  Renée Estevez (Martin Sheen's daughter) appeared in several episodes of The West Wing.  In the R1 US version, she is billed as Renée but in one of the European versions (and I don't remember which one) she's billed as Renee.  Another user and I shared screencaps to show the difference in this forum a couple of years ago.  This is clearly one title by your and Kluge's definition -- but two separate and different actual credits.  So why should we accept your argument that we can discard profiles that are the same title and pick one of them for common name purposes?  Especially without looking at all the titles.  If you happen to review one of 6 of the same title how can you be sure that this one is correct and the others are in error?

Just because two profiles have the same original title does not mean that the credits are the same, no matter how often you argue that it isn't necessary to check each profile.  You cannot say that the credit in profile B is an "error" because it doesn't agree with credit in A.
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001
Faggot
Registered: September 21, 2009
Posts: 6
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Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:
Just because two profiles have the same original title does not mean that the credits are the same, no matter how often you argue that it isn't necessary to check each profile.  You cannot say that the credit in profile B is an "error" because it doesn't agree with credit in A.


But in this situation all the credits are the same, no one has said otherwise. Every single profile for AVP2 in the CLT contains the same credit. It's only the variations in the titles that's causing them to be counted multiple times.
If there was crossover, of course more examination would be needed, but there is none.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorArdos
Registered: July 31, 2008
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 2,506
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TheMadMartian,

Of course it'll help, slowly but it will help. I've got no idea who submitted changes as a result of that thread so I have to use fictional data to explain -

If all 9 people involved in the thread each submitted 5 profiles to show the true common name, that's 45 more that are now showing the right info. Then when they buy another title with that person in & verified the variant used there, they submit it and again it pushes it in the right direction.


kdh1949 I'll try and explain. Yes if they're credited DIFFERENTLY they'll be counted against each INDIVIDUAL name, ONCE per title. However, if they're credited the SAME, they SHOULD only be counted ONCE period. Also, as has been explained already, the CLT in general only shows them several times because the data was not entered correctly.

Edit: In other words, each variant of a name should only be counted against a single title once.
 Last edited: by Ardos
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,199
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Quoting Faggot:
Quote:
Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:
Just because two profiles have the same original title does not mean that the credits are the same, no matter how often you argue that it isn't necessary to check each profile.  You cannot say that the credit in profile B is an "error" because it doesn't agree with credit in A.


But in this situation all the credits are the same, no one has said otherwise. Every single profile for AVP2 in the CLT contains the same credit. It's only the variations in the titles that's causing them to be counted multiple times.
If there was crossover, of course more examination would be needed, but there is none.

While that may be true, I have yet to see Ken tell us we are allowed to ignore the CLT results because the titles are all the same.  In his quote he says, "if a user documents errors in the database where the credit is not entered properly, that can and should be considered."

This statement concerns credits that are entered improperly.  Nothing more, nothing less.  While I understand the desire to extend it beyond what Ken actually said, I can't do that.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,199
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Quoting Forget_the_Rest:
Quote:
TheMadMartian,

Of course it'll help, slowly but it will help. I've got no idea who submitted changes as a result of that thread so I have to use fictional data to explain -

If all 9 people involved in the thread each submitted 5 profiles to show the true common name, that's 45 more that are now showing the right info. Then when they buy another title with that person in & verified the variant used there, they submit it and again it pushes it in the right direction.

But, if 9 people who didn't participate in the thread, do the same thing, what is gained?  That is the part I am trying to wrap my brain around. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorninehours
Registered: April 3, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 1,998
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So, while ninehours, and the other nine people who participated in that thread are using 'George D. Wallace' as their common name, the rest of us are using 'George Wallace'.

1] Don't presume you know what i am doing I am not using George D. as the common name, until it is proved what the actual common name is i stick with the CLT.

2] Please don't involve me in these pointless augments, if i have anything to say i am quite capable of saying it for myself.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Netherlands Posts: 8,667
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Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:
What you seem more than willing to ignore is the proven fact that just because there are two or more versions of Alien vs. Predator 2 it does not necessariliy follow that the actual film credits for each version are identical.

As has been pointed out several times in this thread: that's not an issue here, as there are no "ambigious credits" in this particular case. Not a single title shows up under both name variants; the CLT results are absolutely in unison, except for the fact that most 'Aliens vs. Predator 2' profiles haven't got the original title field filled in (or not correctly). That's the only thing that's in play here.

As for Unicus' concerns: I'm all for "getting users on the same page". I'd love everyone to get on the same page on how to parse Asian names, for instance. Or even Western names, for that matter (latest fine example - Natasha Warner Gregson - here). But alas: we're failing miserably. That doesn't mean that we don't plough on, though: if you're profiling Natasha Warner Gregson today, you parse it the way you feel it should be done, although there's no concensus, and no way to get all users on the same page. That's unfortunate, indeed. Same here: as of yet, it's not possible to get everyone on the same page, but we work with what we've got to the best of our ability, and we try to make the best of it. That's all.
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorArdos
Registered: July 31, 2008
Reputation: High Rating
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Forget_the_Rest:
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TheMadMartian,

Of course it'll help, slowly but it will help. I've got no idea who submitted changes as a result of that thread so I have to use fictional data to explain -

If all 9 people involved in the thread each submitted 5 profiles to show the true common name, that's 45 more that are now showing the right info. Then when they buy another title with that person in & verified the variant used there, they submit it and again it pushes it in the right direction.

But, if 9 people who didn't participate in the thread, do the same thing, what is gained?  That is the part I am trying to wrap my brain around. 


As you don't say, I'm going to have to assume that they followed the rules & checked the credits for whichever title(s) they're submitting for. Therefore although they might use the other name as the common one for now, it will still improve the accuracy of the results.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
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Once again, we have a thread full of hatred and misunderstandings, with discussions involving rules "specialists" who are unable to agree on their interpretation, knowing on another hand that the online database is mainly made by "normal" users.

When a database is elaborated by thousands of contributors using different cultures and languages, the only way to hope to have something coherent is to have rules that are :
-simple
-intuitive
-translated in different languages.

Our rules are :
-complicated
-non intuitive (each time that we could choose a solution that meets common sense , we chose an idiotic one)
-only in english.

Though I admire the huge work made by some users to try to improve the resulting mess, I think that the only solution is in local databases taking their informations in a minimal online directed by simple rules and intuitive guides. I know that this will, as usual, earn me sarcasms from a bunch of users, and perhaps another ban from Ken. Anyway, if we want to get out of this impasse, the only thing to do is to make rules with no more than two pages, change the voting system to forbid changes that bring nothing, and share rules translations as we share system translations.
Images from movies
 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Once again, we have a thread full of hatred and misunderstandings, with discussions involving rules "specialists" who are unable to agree on their interpretation, knowing on another hand that the online database is mainly made by "normal" users.

When a database is elaborated by thousands of contributors using different cultures and languages, the only way to hope to have something coherent is to have rules that are :
-simple
-intuitive
-translated in different languages.

Our rules are :
-complicated


-non intuitive (each time that we could choose a solution that meets common sense , we chose an idiotic one)
-only in english.

Though I admire the huge work made by some users to try to improve the resulting mess, I think that the only solution is in local databases taking their information in a minimal online directed by simple rules and intuitive guides. I know that this will, as usual, own me sarcasms from a bunch of users, and perhaps another ban from Ken. Anyway, if we want to get out of this impasse, the only thing to do is to make rules with no more than two pages, change the voting system to forbid changes that bring nothing, and share rules translations as we share system translations.

         
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:
What you seem more than willing to ignore is the proven fact that just because there are two or more versions of Alien vs. Predator 2 it does not necessariliy follow that the actual film credits for each version are identical.

As has been pointed out several times in this thread: that's not an issue here, as there are [b]no "ambigious credits" in this particular case[/b]. Not a single title shows up under both name variants; the CLT results are absolutely in unison, except for the fact that most 'Aliens vs. Predator 2' profiles haven't got the original title field filled in (or not correctly). That's the only thing that's in play here.

As for Unicus' concerns: I'm all for "getting users on the same page". I'd love everyone to get on the same page on how to parse Asian names, for instance. Or even Western names, for that matter (latest fine example - Natasha Warner Gregson - here). But alas: we're failing miserably. That doesn't mean that we don't plough on, though: if you're profiling Natasha Warner Gregson today, you parse it the way you feel it should be done, although there's no concensus, and no way to get all users on the same page. That's unfortunate, indeed. Same here: as of yet, it's not possible to get everyone on the same page, but we work with what we've got to the best of our ability, and we try to make the best of it. That's all.

Interesting statement of FACT, Tim. How can you possibly know that? Are you sitting on 400,000 titles and just pop in every copy of every film in the world. I can state that one copy of a DVD   for A region and A locality have a particular credit listing, I cannot make such a claim globally, nor would i because i UNDERSTAND that I cannot possibly know whether or not that is true, I do KNOW that it is quite possible that it is not true, and I therefore will not reach an assumption which benefits no one if it is not correct and in fact causes damage by entering factually incorrect data.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 2,759
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Quoting Woola:
Quote:
         

Quoting DJ Doena from this thread:
Quote:
Could you please lose the habbit of posting a single ambiguous smiley without any text? Either express your opinion properly or say nothing at all.

Oh, I see, it's 6 smileys now.
 Last edited: by RHo
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting RHo:
Quote:
Quoting Woola:
Quote:
         

Quoting DJ Doena from this thread:
Quote:
Could you please lose the habbit of posting a single ambiguous smiley without any text? Either express your opinion properly or say nothing at all.

Oh, I see, it's 6 smileys now.

 
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
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