Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Argument about accents and common names (Hijacked Thread)
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,329
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Happens to the best of us... and yeah I am sure the intent was clear too... but I thought better on the safe side around here! 
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
The thing is, though: it doesn't matter.


It doesn't matter, but it is the main source of non linking, far more than parsing.

Explanation : When the real name of an actor is "André Maranne", credit makers have many solutions for the credits :
1/André Maranne
2/André MARANNE
3/ANDRE MARANNE (the generally most used)
4/ANDRÉ MARANNE

All this is perfectly correct per french typography rules, though the last solution (4) is rarely used, for historical reasons (at the time of writing machines (before 1990), this solution could not be used easily.

Those four credits are "automatically" read by french people, without thinking since it's totally obvious, André Maranne.

Ken has decided (though there is nothing in rules) that 1/, 2/ 4/ is André, and 3/ Andre.

For actors with many credits, we are quite sure to find two different names (and 4 for names like François Berléand), while using standard capitalization rule of the country of the cast member, we would have only one name, without linking problem.

So, no, it doesn't matter... it just adds to the mess of the online database, but everyone here agree (me the first), that the only important thing is to follow rules, specially when they are not written in the rules themselves but hidden somewhere in the forums.
Images from movies
 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorArdos
Registered: July 31, 2008
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 2,506
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
surfeur, to use the capitalisation rules of every country would require every user to know the rules of every country. Ken has opted for the easiest way - Do a direct copy only, if the character has an accent on the uppercase, you copy it to the lower case. If not, don't.

As for not linking, there's a simple solution, you link them to the common name variant if you spot them. That would help to sort them out.

It isn't as bad as some make it out to be.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorVirusPil
uncredited
Registered: January 1, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 3,087
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Oops. Fixed! 

Oh well, I'm sure the intent was clear...


Can happen, we're all just human.
 Last edited: by VirusPil
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,329
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Ken's clarification... along with Common Name/Credited As linking is still possible.

I personally understand Ken's POV... I know that I for one will not learn all the different writing standards for all over the world just to contribute to a DVD database. Ken has said in the past that he has to consider both accuracy and ease of use when writing the rules... and I agree with what he chose... a simple uppercase to lowercase association of what you actually see on screen is the easiest for everyone once they know it is what you have to do.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,329
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
I see Forget beat me to it!
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorVirusPil
uncredited
Registered: January 1, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 3,087
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
As Surfeur said, this is the ruling and that is on what we make our profiles.

As we don't have a actor database which has a perfect "real" name with all "credited as", we have to live with that. Imho a good solution for a multicultural user-based database.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting VirusPil:
Quote:

As we don't have a actor database which has a perfect "real" name ...

As for correct accentuation, just take IMDb's name. For French actors/actresses, I've quite never seen any error in the spelling, so I suppose Spanish, Italian, Scandivian or German names are correctly reproduced. And even if there are errors, they probably will never reach our fantastic result of quite 100%  accentuated names  with errors for a variant or another found in CLT.
And I doubt any copyright could be opposed to the use of André Maranne, as it is his real name. Of course, if they had chosen Andre Maranne... we are happy, our database is protected against them... 
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantSpeedy666
Reg. Jan 24, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
Austria Posts: 51
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Everytime when surfeur51 writes about the correct capitalization rules for french people he gets smashed down with arguments like

* What you see is what you get
* Ease of use for multicultural users
* No need to learn special rules of a language/culture
* Consistentcy in database

But when it comes to name parsing all of those wise arguments seem to be invalid.
Users prefer to use the "correct parsing" and make page long argumentations if a person using a middle name or a double barreled last name.

Curious don't you think so?
Especially since the documentation for accented letters in french names would be much easier than for middle/double last names.

mfg Speedy
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorVirusPil
uncredited
Registered: January 1, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 3,087
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting VirusPil:
Quote:

As we don't have a actor database which has a perfect "real" name ...

As for correct accentuation, just take IMDb's name. For French actors/actresses, I've quite never seen any error in the spelling, so I suppose Spanish, Italian, Scandivian or German names are correctly reproduced. And even if there are errors, they probably will never reach our fantastic result of quite 100%  accentuated names  with errors for a variant or another found in CLT.
And I doubt any copyright could be opposed to the use of André Maranne, as it is his real name. Of course, if they had chosen Andre Maranne... we are happy, our database is protected against them... 


But this isn't as we should do according the rules.     
If we would search the right name for each actor, this would give for nearly every name a discussion like we would parse the name. 
That's why I think the solution we've is Ok.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,329
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Parsing shouldn't be a concern for much longer... as Ken mentioned in the Rules Committee forum that he was going to make linking work no matter how it is parsed in the Rules Committee Forum...

Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
One near-term alternative is to alter the program so that local matches are made without regard to parsing.  So, if you have a local actor John/Douglas/Smith, and a profile update (or new profile) comes down with an actor John/Douglas Smith, they would be considered a match and the new profile would adopt John/Douglas/Smith as the name.

Therefore a profile update with differing parsing would not break a local link.  Thoughts?

*EDIT* Just to be clear, as with other matches the program would first try to find an exact match in the local database. So if for some reason you want to keep both names locally, you could do that too.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorVirusPil
uncredited
Registered: January 1, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 3,087
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Thx, Pete.

What I wanted to say: If we would always search for the "real name" as common name for DVDP, we would get discussions, like we got in past on parsing.
Even if André Maranne is the correct name there would be always one or two that would say we can't be sure, ... we need facts, ... found sites that say it's Andre Maranne. 
Btw, the argueing is often not just because of wanting it the correct, often it's just to be justified or just to don't justify another user. 

As long as DVDP hasn't a build in actor database, we have to go with the rules and the official statements from the forum. And as I wrote: Imho it's a very good way to treat it.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,329
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
I understand what you are saying VirusPil. That post was more for the benefit of Speedy666
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,329
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Just an FYI... Ken already has the beta ignoring parsing so hopefully name parsing will no longer be too much of a concern once the beta goes to full release...

From List of Changes:
Quote:
- Downloaded cast and crew will now match on full name if no direct name match found (ignoring name parsing)
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting VirusPil:
Quote:

But this isn't as we should do according the rules.   


Yes, it is .

Rules (updated 4/02/09) : "Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead."

For people who do not know standard capitalization rules in another country, they can find it easily in IMDb, without copying entire lists of credits. A name is not copyrighted. By the way, it is easier to check the accentuation in IMDb than search all variants in CLT to add the proper "common name" to obtain linking.

Perhaps you saw in the rules something I missed... not in the forum monthes before last rule update, of course.
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 8,667
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Do we really have to go through this same old pointless discussion every time we're trying to establish a common name where some kind of accent is involved? Can't we just accept the simple fact that Mr. Maranne is usually credited without the accent on the "e" in his first name, and move on?
    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next